View Full Version : Changes
Have any of the orgers ever gone about your own business, say perhaps put the kettle on and then had a strange feeling that you aren't the person that put the kettle on?
It happened to me just recently, there was a gravitational shift in my values in life and I see things differently now. I thought I was pretty emotionally hard but I think I am a shrinking violet which counter-intuitively gives me a greater strength to do what I think is right. And it happened in a split second. I know now that if I shed genuine tears it gives a sense of strength and not weakness. I see clarity of thought when all around others are seeing the short term benefits. I can now say to my boss (if he asks) that he is under-achieving and not me.
I feel like Neo seeing the matrix for the first time and it is emotionally overpowering but rewarding, even euphoric...
No cheap words seems to affect me, I am born again into this incredible wholesome person that seeks no evil nor fears it. I can now see the best counsel from the least valued of quarters.
Tubthumper
27-Jun-10, 00:32
That's good. Who do you think will win tomorrow?
That's good. Who do you think will win tomorrow?
England of course!![lol]
Tubthumper
27-Jun-10, 00:35
The power of positive thought - remarkable!
The power of positive thought - remarkable!
You should try it some time.
England of course!![lol]
Huh! Proves it - yer still as deranged as you were when you put on the kettle - take it off btw it doesn't suit you! ;)
Tubthumper
27-Jun-10, 00:38
You should try it some time.
I'm not sure...
Huh! Proves it - yer still as deranged as you were when you put on the kettle - take it off btw it doesn't suit you! ;)
I forgive for you, for you do not know what you do.
I forgive for you, for you do not know what you do.
Gee thanks yer holiness - what amber nectar are you on the night? :lol:
Kevin Milkins
27-Jun-10, 00:44
Why am I waiting for a punch line?:confused, and I feel slightly embarrassed.:confused:
Tubthumper
27-Jun-10, 00:47
It must have been the same for the mates of saul when he got his bush burnt.
One minute, he's yer old mate with his donkey, bad attitude and wicked jokes... the next he's got his drawers on his head and a smug kind of smile on his face.
The road to Damascus...:eek:
One minute, he's yer old mate with his donkey, bad attidtude and wicked jokes... the next he's got his drawers on his head and a smug kind of smile on his face.
:eek:
Dinna forget the pencils up his nose . . . wibble! :D
So who did put the kettle on? :confused
Thursolass
27-Jun-10, 06:00
Polly did it! Sorry couldn't resist it.:lol:
ywindythesecond
27-Jun-10, 07:35
OK Reggy, lets start again.
Tony Blair went to Kyoto and .............................
I forgive for you, for you do not know what you do.
Powerful stuff and whoever uttered it knew something that no one else knew at the time let alone now.
Ive walked out of the mist a couple ot times myself and floated on cloud 9 for a while but the proof of the pudding is when the euphoria recedes and the changes are challenged.
I would be interersted to hear more Rheghead.
John Little
27-Jun-10, 09:35
I'll have a pint of whatever he's had!
Ok Rheged....at the risk of soundy all new agey, shifts are happening to a lot of people I know, and yes when it happens it's like a weight has been lifted and you are able to see clearly. The knack is to keep your new perspective and open yourself up to the universe.
On the other-hand have they been putting something in the water ;)
I would be interersted to hear more Rheghead.
I felt great pity on someone the other day. He was blind to the needs of others and because he thought the law was on his side then that vindicated his position. And yet there was no compassion for the people that were affected by his actions. I thought that was shameful on me to just listen and nod and walk away. I think he wanted power, he wanted to be right or the need to be noticed, it was more about his own vanity than his greed. I think he wanted me to think he had eventually came of age and was now to be respected. I just couldn't respect someone who could trod on someone else just because he could. And he wouldn't listen to them or me. It is true that you should do unto others as they do unto you because I would expect others to pity me in that same situation for being so vane.
I've learned that the sweetest things that you can do to someone is say their name, smile, listen and show genuinely that you care about what they think and see things from their perspective. I'd like to see more of that in this world, and on this forum for that matter...
tonkatojo
27-Jun-10, 10:10
I felt great pity on someone the other day. He was blind to the needs of others and because he thought the law was on his side then that vindicated his position. And yet there was no compassion for the people that were affected by his actions. I thought that was shameful on me to just listen and nod and walk away. I think he wanted power, he wanted to be right or the need to be noticed, it was more about his own vanity than his greed. I think he wanted me to think he had eventually came of age and was now to be respected. I just couldn't respect someone who could trod on someone else just because he could. And he wouldn't listen to them or me. It is true that you should do unto others as they do unto you because I would expect others to pity me in that same situation for being so vane.
I've learned that the sweetest things that you can do to someone is say their name, smile, listen and show genuinely that you care about what they think and see things from their perspective. I'd like to see more of that in this world, and on this forum for that matter...
Do you mean a bit like the Lib Dems.??
I've learned that the sweetest things that you can do to someone is say their name, smile, listen and show genuinely that you care about what they think and see things from their perspective. I'd like to see more of that in this world, and on this forum for that matter...
Aye, it's a continual battle.
I think most people try to be good and seek change but as various posts on the org will show something interupts that process and we can revert to the selfish I'm the kiddy philosophy you saw in the person you were talking to.
Most people feel a need to change and very often people do change on the surface although the deeper changes required to maintain change are very elusive if at all?
I think the org could teach us all a lesson. It did me although the deeper changes are still elusive.
Invisible
27-Jun-10, 11:13
So who did put the kettle on? :confused
I think it was Polly
Aye, it's a continual battle.
I think most people try to be good and seek change but as various posts on the org will show something interupts that process and we can revert to the selfish I'm the kiddy philosophy you saw in the person you were talking to.
Most people feel a need to change and very often people do change on the surface although the deeper changes required to maintain change are very elusive if at all?
I think the org could teach us all a lesson. It did me although the deeper changes are still elusive.
I think some people are never ready to change, they will always be plugged into the system of greed, vanity, self importance, and a whole load of other words which escape me right now.
I'm not religious in anyway but Jesus was right. He lived in a time of Roman avarice. The empire expanded trodding on other peoples and exploiting the environment. His messages and warnings were simple, greed and the accumulation of power or wealth will be ultimately self-defeating. And eventually Rome collapsed in on itself through lack of resources to support its empire. It lived assymetrically with nature. When Jesus said 'the Kingdom of Heaven' he could easily have said 'in harmony with nature and our neighbours'.
I see parallels with today, I'm fascinated about the effects our civilisation's needs are having on how it wants me to see the world, it beckons me to support society, like an extended phenotypic effect on my brain. It can only exist in its present form by the support of those that live in it and we can only live in it if it exists. Once we change individually then we live outside of the stability of the present status of society. If our change is deleterious then we will be forgotten in time, a dead end, but if we change for the better for all society then we will evolve to something better.
Even on the microscale, if we do a selfless act the repercussions could alter many lives for the better in ways we cannot immediately quantify.
But there is a danger here, the word society or what is mutually beneficial can be distorted by selfish others to mislead. Take for instance a herd of zebra. Classically it was commonly held that they stuck together altruistically for the benefit of the species as a whole. They aren't. They are acting in each of their individual's best interest, that is best for them because if they stick together they have a better chance of survival but not for us because we as humans can manipulate nature rather than be constantly subject to it. Therefore acting selfishly is not in our best interests, it is ultimately self defeating, we need to act altruistically for the good of our neighbours and the Earth.
So there is a huge moral issue with how we live our lives today. Living assymetrically with one and other and with nature is harmful. The chap I mentioned is living like that as well, selfishly. So when I put on my kettle, I thought what would Jesus have done instead? Would he have made tea for the whole neighbourhood? Would he have had a cold drink instead? Would he have asked me to consider the hidden processes for me to have a cup of tea? Where did the tea come from? He would ask who benefits? Was the kettle a good soundly made one or a cheapie throw away? Could he have asked how I could I enjoy the tea knowing that a child was paid a pittance to work all day picking tea for his poor family? Would Jesus drink from the teapot that was made by another child in a chinese sweatshop? If I told him that the electricity had a huge carbon footprint which was contributing to environmental disaster on a global scale, would he sit down with me and chat over a cup of hot tea?
I think if I told Him that I was trying to live my life in the best way for my family with the least amount of bother to my neighbours or the environment given that I cannot possibly do it perfectly because society and the way it is set up doesn't allow me to. I think He would then embrace and kiss me and forgive me for I am only starting to know what I should do. His message was of altruism forgiveness charity and equality and I intend to put that into practice.
John Little
27-Jun-10, 13:52
"I think some people are never ready to change, they will always be plugged into the system of greed, vanity, self importance, and a whole load of other words which escape me right now. "
Perhaps you are taking it all a little too much to heart? If you switch the words you use around they can be seen as positives; greed= thrift, vanity= high self-esteem, self-importance = a sense of self-worth. Your view seems a little skewed towards the negative here - a half-empty world where, viewed from another angle it's half-full
"I'm not religious in anyway but Jesus was right. He lived in a time of Roman avarice. "
Nor am I religious - but I see Jesus not as a divinity but as someone who knew fine the way that people work. His crowd psychology was second to none. He lived in a time of avarice. But not just Roman.
"The empire expanded trodding on other peoples and exploiting the environment. His messages and warnings were simple, greed and the accumulation of power or wealth will be ultimately self-defeating. And eventually Rome collapsed in on itself through lack of resources to support its empire. It lived assymetrically with nature. When Jesus said 'the Kingdom of Heaven' he could easily have said 'in harmony with nature and our neighbours'. "
The Roman empire expanded to a limit which was sustainable for hundreds of years. Jesus's message was the same as the other Essenes were putting out - but you can find sages of any religion saying the same thing. I think they do not condemn people but simply hold up a mirror so you can see yourself. You end up feeling as guilty as what you wish to see. Why do you wish this on yourself?
The reasons why the Roman empire collapsed are varied and complex- resources is really a minor part of it. 25% of the empire were slaves and the polity itself lasted 1000 years - that's quite a success story in most books. Objectively they are not the best example of a civilisation destroyed by profligacy with resources- 16th century Spain perhaps? Economic historians do not have all the answers - I think the mentalists have a better notion of what makes people tick.
"I see parallels with today,"
Well - cool - but it would be a mistake to predict using those parallels.
"I'm fascinated about the effects our civilisation's needs are having on how it wants me to see the world, it beckons me to support society, like an extended phenotypic effect on my brain. It can only exist in its present form by the support of those that live in it and we can only live in it if it exists."
That is undoubtedly true. It is industrialisation that has made it possible to support the number of people we have. And you have little choice but to support society. If you are not a consumer then the economy collapses, we have a return to subsistence and there will be mass famine.
"Once we change individually then we live outside of the stability of the present status of society. If our change is deleterious then we will be forgotten in time, a dead end, but if we change for the better for all society then we will evolve to something better. "
You aiming to be some sort of hermit living in a tipi on the road to Dunnet? To what end?
Is this some sort of Hindu impulse where, as you approach the end of life you shed materialism and live only on what you can beg with a loincloth under a tree? In Caithness that might be a little extreme - if only because it's damned cold up there.
If you aim to change all of society, then how do you propose to do it? To force everyone to be nice to each other? They won't do it I'm afraid - you will be another John the Baptist crying in the wilderness - and look what happened to him! Besides - would that not be sort of controlling and trying to make the world in your own image?
"Even on the microscale, if we do a selfless act the repercussions could alter many lives for the better in ways we cannot immediately quantify."
Aye - but the same is true of a completely selfish act- see below..
"But there is a danger here, the word society or what is mutually beneficial can be distorted by selfish others to mislead. Take for instance a herd of zebra. Classically it was commonly held that they stuck together altruistically for the benefit of the species as a whole. They aren't. They are acting in each of their individual's best interest, that is best for them because if they stick together they have a better chance of survival but not for us because we as humans can manipulate nature rather than be constantly subject to it. Therefore acting selfishly is not in our best interests, it is ultimately self defeating, we need to act altruistically for the good of our neighbours and the Earth."
Oh no! You'd better to go back and read John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham. All humans are inherently selfish and do not act out of altruism according to them. We work together precisely because we are like zebras. The best thing to do according to Utilitarians is to recognise our selfishness and to use it to work together for our own ends so that the end product brings the most pleasure to the most people.
"So there is a huge moral issue with how we live our lives today. Living assymetrically with one and other and with nature is harmful. The chap I mentioned is living like that as well, selfishly. So when I put on my kettle, I thought what would Jesus have done instead? Would he have made tea for the whole neighbourhood? "
Probably not according to available evidence - none of which is Primary. He'd have probably changed it all to wine and invited everyone round for a party.
"Would he have had a cold drink instead?"
Undoubtedly - I don't think they did hot drinks in Judaea
"Would he have asked me to consider the hidden processes for me to have a cup of tea? Where did the tea come from? He would ask who benefits? Was the kettle a good soundly made one or a cheapie throw away? Could he have asked how I could I enjoy the tea knowing that a child was paid a pittance to work all day picking tea for his poor family? Would Jesus drink from the teapot that was made by another child in a chinese sweatshop? If I told him that the electricity had a huge carbon footprint which was contributing to environmental disaster on a global scale, would he sit down with me and chat over a cup of hot tea?"
You are determined to feel guilty!! Yes - the child was paid a pittance.
OK - so don't buy the tea.
So the child gets nothing - do you feel better?
Same with the teapot.
As the environmental disaster on a global scale- there is a very limited effect that you personally can have on it. However if you choose to campaign and get governments to act then yes - you can have an impact. But while you drive a car, live in a modern house with all its fittings and accoutrements and do not freeze in it then you are going to have a carbon footprint. Accept it. Try to reduce it.
But don't lie asleep over it.
It's a bit like eating meat but spurning sight or knowledge of the abbatoir.
"I think if I told Him that I was trying to live my life in the best way for my family with the least amount of bother to my neighbours or the environment given that I cannot possibly do it perfectly because society and the way it is set up doesn't allow me to. I think He would then embrace and kiss me and forgive me for I am only starting to know what I should do."
Is that not what we all do?
And is that what you really want?
Forgiveness for being human?
I think you a natural born Catholic and in need of confession.
"His message was of altruism forgiveness charity and equality and I intend to put that into practice."
That it was - so was Buddha's, Mohammed's, Gandhi's......
So good for you - you seem a good bloke.
If I were you I'd have a couple of drams- the world looks gae better after that.
Tubthumper
27-Jun-10, 13:57
...I think if I told Him that I was trying to live my life in the best way for my family with the least amount of bother to my neighbours or the environment given that I cannot possibly do it perfectly because society and the way it is set up doesn't allow me to. I think He would then embrace and kiss me and forgive me for I am only starting to know what I should do. His message was of altruism forgiveness charity and equality and I intend to put that into practice.
You do that. It's the decent thing to do. And if you feel you must put a shape to your need, or give yourself a higher calling in order to justify your change, then I suppose JC is as good a totem as any.
Enjoy your new life!;)
Rheg did you by any chance jump out from hiding behind Amy when she came out of the Pandorica after two thousand years last night?
The second coming of the Holy Ghost
We need a pocketful of miracles
Two thousand years and he ain't shown yet.
Maybe he has and maybe he's taken over Rheg's body in what after all is known as God's own county. :eek:
Rheghead it seems as though you are on the road to enlightenment congratulations.
Four years ago I emerged from a couple of weeks in intensive care, wired up to every imaginable machine including a ventilator and (as I realised later) not expected to survive the experience. When I came to, I did seem to be a very different person. I still am. My priorities and view of life have changed so much. For the better I'd say. :)
Sometimes I wonder if it was simply a life changing experience that gave me another chance at living and taught me what's important and what's not, or if I really have swopped souls/spirits -or whatever you care to call it -with another person who was in a similar state of suspended consciousness. :confused
Whatever, it's all good. :)
Angela the serious illness thing happened to me in 2000. It was the second event that made me think about my life and opinions but the one that had the most impact on my life. The first was sitting in a car and keeping my mouth shut whilst the driver - a parent of my friend - spouted forth some of the bigotted, small minded and racist tripe i have ever hear. It made me determined never to avoid the issue or let something I disagreed with so strongly pass without comment again. Unfortuately you guys here often get the result of that experience as i wheel my soapbox out fromunder my bed once again Sigh:roll:
I think some people are never ready to change, they will always be plugged into the system of greed, vanity, self importance, and a whole load of other words which escape me right now.
{snippidy do daaaaa}
he environment given that I cannot possibly do it perfectly because society and the way it is set up doesn't allow me to. I think He would then embrace and kiss me and forgive me for I am only starting to know what I should do. His message was of altruism forgiveness charity and equality and I intend to put that into practice.
This chap never, ever ceases to surprise.
Rheghead, I know your view on religion etc. etc. but as a confirmation of your way of thinking it's interesting to note what Jesus said about his true followers :-
John 13:34,35
Could there be a more valuable ideal to live up to?
Good on ya :)
A wee bit of help here for orgers who don't have ready access to the book from which Saveman quotes:
John 13: 34,35 ' I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.'
Sighs long and heartly sighs
Changes is the title of the thread Not looking back moments at what was or gosh this happened to me and life dealt me this cards
Its about learning from Lifes experiences and always moving forward dealing with what the pack dealt you
otherwise a lot of us would remain downtrodden always its the old scenario why me !! well why not you rise above it
better you than someone else
The old saying there is always someone else worse off than you somewhere right now is so true
ps Polly did put the kettle on but it boiled over
There is always someone worse off than you but somedays you wonder how and where!
Everything can go wrong and will go wrong sometimes.....
Sukie never took the kettle off in time in our house and it boiled over!
I felt great pity on someone the other day. He was blind to the needs of others and because he thought the law was on his side then that vindicated his position. And yet there was no compassion for the people that were affected by his actions. I thought that was shameful on me to just listen and nod and walk away. I think he wanted power, he wanted to be right or the need to be noticed, it was more about his own vanity than his greed. I think he wanted me to think he had eventually came of age and was now to be respected. I just couldn't respect someone who could trod on someone else just because he could. And he wouldn't listen to them or me. It is true that you should do unto others as they do unto you because I would expect others to pity me in that same situation for being so vane.
I've learned that the sweetest things that you can do to someone is say their name, smile, listen and show genuinely that you care about what they think and see things from their perspective. I'd like to see more of that in this world, and on this forum for that matter...
LOVELY words, really nice...........................................
ooookay......so, did we get a cup of tea out of this or not??
sounds like some are due a hangover
Dog-eared
29-Jun-10, 00:40
Anyone read " The Hunting Hypothesis " by Robert Ardrey?
I felt great pity on someone the other day. He was blind to the needs of others and because he thought the law was on his side then that vindicated his position. And yet there was no compassion for the people that were affected by his actions. I thought that was shameful on me to just listen and nod and walk away. I think he wanted power, he wanted to be right or the need to be noticed, it was more about his own vanity than his greed. I think he wanted me to think he had eventually came of age and was now to be respected. I just couldn't respect someone who could trod on someone else just because he could. And he wouldn't listen to them or me. It is true that you should do unto others as they do unto you because I would expect others to pity me in that same situation for being so vane.
I've learned that the sweetest things that you can do to someone is say their name, smile, listen and show genuinely that you care about what they think and see things from their perspective. I'd like to see more of that in this world, and on this forum for that matter...
Dale Carnegie-a good read
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