View Full Version : IVF, NHS and marriage?
John Little
23-Jun-10, 14:48
On another thread there was a matter which seemed to me to deserve more of an airing – but not where it was. It's been tugging at my ear a while.
IVF on the NHS. I know little of IVF but should it be available on the NHS?
I can think of no convincing reasons why not and I have been turning it over since last night. If a couple have been trying for years, with heartache and need to fulfil this aspect of human nature, then I cannot see why the NHS should deny them help. They pay National Insurance too.
The side benefits of it involve savings to the NHS in the long term, preserving of relationships, and the setting up of families which otherwise would not exist.
If we have the technology to do it – then why not? Is it a preserve of the rich?
After all there are far less deserving expenditures already getting funded by the NHS.
The other question smacked of a moral condition, implying that IVF on the NHS should be linked to marriage.
I cannot see the logic of this.
My wife and I were together for 10 years before we married and if someone had attempted to attach being married as a condition to our receiving something then I should have been indignant at the intrusion into our private life. It seems to me that tying fertility treatment to some notion that unmarried equals immoral is a non-starter. It is not an accurate reflection of our society.
Anyway there are millions of people who are not married who are bringing up children in safe, happy and caring homes.
The link between marriage and IVF on the NHS imho is not a valid one.
I am open to other opinions however…..
No marriage is infallible so I dont see why you would have to be married to recieve this treatment,what i do agree with though is that those who can afford to pay do so,to a limit x
ShelleyCowie
23-Jun-10, 14:58
There are so many perspectives to see this from. There are alot of people for IVF being on the NHS and some against. People are entitled to opinions.
I am all for IVF on the NHS. Personally, i was told when i was 16 years old i might not be able to concieve due to some medical problems (im sharing this because i feel i should for any people who might be in the same boat as i was)
My dearest sister offered to be surrogate for me if IVF didnt work when the time came for me to have children. And i thought that was really mature and kind hearted of her.
But.....i had Athrun. No problems concieving. Me and my OH did plan him. This time round, baby wasnt planned but we are more than happy :) Each one is a blessing to me because i thought i might not have any. I see it as a mini miracle that i have had no problems concieving. And the problem i had when i was 16....vanished! :)
So for any people ready to start a family but have problems concieving then why cant they get a little help to bring them a child? There are so many deserving people out there who would devote their lives to a child but cant. The NHS gives a little hope for them people.
Anyone who is having problems or is trying IVF i wish you all the best from the bottom of my heart! xx
I support IVF treatment on the NHS for all the reasons mentioned. However I think there should be a limit on how many courses should be available to a couple before they have to start paying for the course of treatment themselves.
There are lots of other ailments that are just as important.
IVF versus overpopulation and dwindling resources. A difficult subject. :eek:
I'd say no to IVF, it kind of goes against evolution in my book; lots of things goes against it, but IVF is at the extreme. If you can't reproduce naturally or can afford to pay for it then to hell with you. I'm especially against IVF for older women who are way past child bearing age... having a kid can't really be described as a right.
I also think the NHS shouldn't fund alternate or eastern medicine without actual scientific evidence (homoeopathy, acupuncture)
On marriage: I don't think any lifestyle should be incentivised, the government shouldn't mandate their morality on people... In my more angry moments, I want to know where my reward is for being a single, educated man with no kids, no criminal record and currently working.
I have aired my views on this subject before and revealed some very personal info for much the same reasons Shelley has posted so I am not goin to to repeat myself.
I think you are correct, RecQuery, in saying that having a child is not a right but does this mean you are also against the life saving treatments available for premature babies nowadays as many years ago these children would not have survived?
I think that some "alternative" treatments should be available on the NHS as I feel that there must be evidence available to say that they work. Not every medicine, whether alternative or conventional, works for every person - we are all individual and there is a myriad of reasons why some things work and some don't.
Aye, ducati, is the beginning of the end truly in sight?
If you can't reproduce naturally or can afford to pay for it then to hell with you. .
Did you really mean to say that?????
You cant have a child... we have a method of helping you but we arent going to do it you can just go to hell? Crikey... I wonder sometimes:roll:
Anyhow my view is that fertility treatment should be available to all across the board in a fair way - thats no means tests, no geographical lotteries just how ever many rounds of IVF is decided to be appropriate. Once that is exhausted then payment for treatment is the next option. There has to be built in to this support for people who cometo the end of the road to come to terms with that.
Infertility is a hard for sime and not so hard for others. What does she know you might think -sitting there smugly with all her children. However I too had to have investigations for infertility in my early 20s and only with treatment did i conceive my eldest son. When my husband and I decided to have a family and I was over 40 I suffered three miscarriages and had to face the thought that I may be too old to have more babies. It can devastate a couple and be a lasting sadness which may never go away and which can lead to long term depression and worse which also costs money to be treated. IVF is there to help women get pregnant, morals about marriage or relationships should not come into clinical decisions. Only if the process would harm the woman or the baby should it be declined.
In my more angry moments, I want to know where my reward is for being a single, educated man with no kids, no criminal record and currently working.
Your rewards are that you in fact ARE educated and ARE currently working and will have the opportunity should you so wish it to be married and have kids. Although a tip.... compassionate people are so much more attractive ;)
If you are going to have babies-go on an do it,but I dont' see why you should squalk at the rest of us if cannot manage it!! nor even think that we should be held up an forced into some sort of contract to help you out! Thats nature -
Aye, ducati, is the beginning of the end truly in sight?
Not in my lifetime unless we are unlucky.:D Steven Hawking is very pesimistic about the next 100 million years though ;)
changilass
23-Jun-10, 17:32
If you are going to have babies-go on an do it,but I dont' see why you should squalk at the rest of us if cannot manage it!! nor even think that we should be held up an forced into some sort of contract to help you out! Thats nature -
Tis to be hoped that this is not the same attitude towards someone 'squalking' when they are having a heart attack or when they have had an accident.
Different folks need the NHS for different reasons, yours would be different from what others need. The NHS is for everyone, not just the ones you find deserving - thank goodness.
*Sigh* Okay, point one: it's not a human right to have children, that's what I'm saying. If that's your argument in favour of IVF, why not allow people to get cosmetic dentistry or breast enlargement on the NHS. In the current climate we need to set some limits. If you wish to pay for it privately then I just plain don't care.
Second point: So my rewards for actually being a responsible adult, foregoing stuff, working and putting in some effort are the opportunities I created for myself with no external help. I'm happy with that, fine. My problem arises when people seem to get rewarded for behaving irresponsibly. I currently think I'm somewhat underemployed but I took it because again I'm a responsible adult.
Did you really mean to say that?????
You cant have a child... we have a method of helping you but we arent going to do it you can just go to hell? Crikey... I wonder sometimes:roll:
Anyhow my view is that fertility treatment should be available to all across the board in a fair way - thats no means tests, no geographical lotteries just how ever many rounds of IVF is decided to be appropriate. Once that is exhausted then payment for treatment is the next option. There has to be built in to this support for people who cometo the end of the road to come to terms with that.
Infertility is a hard for sime and not so hard for others. What does she know you might think -sitting there smugly with all her children. However I too had to have investigations for infertility in my early 20s and only with treatment did i conceive my eldest son. When my husband and I decided to have a family and I was over 40 I suffered three miscarriages and had to face the thought that I may be too old to have more babies. It can devastate a couple and be a lasting sadness which may never go away and which can lead to long term depression and worse which also costs money to be treated. IVF is there to help women get pregnant, morals about marriage or relationships should not come into clinical decisions. Only if the process would harm the woman or the baby should it be declined.
Your rewards are that you in fact ARE educated and ARE currently working and will have the opportunity should you so wish it to be married and have kids. Although a tip.... compassionate people are so much more attractive ;)
Gordon Bonnet
23-Jun-10, 19:13
Couples who demonstrate a commitment to each other by marrying (statistics prove children have better outcomes in married households) should be funded for one course of IVF treatment if they cannot afford to pay for it themselves. This in itself begs the question how can they afford a child in the first place.
The answer is 'money should not come into wanting a family' Sometimes real financial sacrifices have to be made and in the right circumstances these can help bind a family together.
However, after one course of Invitero Fertilisation, as I believe its full title is - has failed then in this current economic climate there are too many other calls on public money within the NHS to carry on trying. Adoption and Fostering routes should be signposted.
Children are not a right...I'm not sure what they are really in terms of fulfilling a life so far bereft of them. We were lucky, in that and my wife and I had , it seemed only had to have a cuddle and there we were - pregnant.
However, no firm commitment via marriage means absolutely no IVF in my book and the very thought of such a concession is an anathema to me.
If the OP is moved to indignance by such a stance then I shall just have to live with it. Also re; 'intrusion' ones 'private' life apparently means little when consulting professionals for the expertise to counter ones bodies failings. Double standards spring to mind and a precious ooh don't dicate to me attitude.
Physical disfigurement or disability will have an effect on one passing on one's genes, so I think that should be given higher priority than any problem with couples having kids...
We do seem to have a very selfish, insular attitude. When we are encouraged to think globally and a considerable amount of your tax pounds are being used in places like sub saharan Africa to help with family planning, to tackle mounting child poverty and over population........
It must suck if you want kids and can't have them. But I think if thats the way mother nature deals the cards.
I don't have kids, before everyone shouts: your alright jack.
changilass
23-Jun-10, 20:32
Mother nature woud still have most of us dying after our 3 score years and 10.
Are you suggesting we stop treating the elderly cos thats the cards mother nature deals?
Its not natural to be on life support, but many come back from it to lead a full life.
John Little
23-Jun-10, 20:34
"However, no firm commitment via marriage means absolutely no IVF in my book and the very thought of such a concession is an anathema to me.
If the OP is moved to indignance by such a stance then I shall just have to live with it. Also re; 'intrusion' ones 'private' life apparently means little when consulting professionals for the expertise to counter ones bodies failings. Double standards spring to mind and a precious ooh don't dicate to me attitude."
I think your moral scruplesvis a vis marriage are probably not reflective of social trends. It may need verification but I believe that more children have been born out of than in wedlock for several years. We are also told that 52% of marriages end in divorce these days - and many people, having their fingers burned first time do not wish to do it again.
My wife and I went for the ceremony and the ring and the bit of paper because we wanted to - after a long time.
We don't need them - and I do not believe it is necessary for a moral life to have them.
Anathema brings religious overtones into this debate, with a reek of heresy and excommunication and snuffed out candles. Do you not think you are in danger of dictating and imposing your own morality on others?
Never at any point did I say that having children was a right and nor would I.
Rights are socially conferred and I see no reason why the NHS might refuse IVF treatment to a couple who might otherwise suffer depression and worse because they cannot have the child they want- and it is in society's gift to let them have that treatment - which may not succeed. Having a child may not be a right, but IVF can be - if we choose.
I hold that a compassionate society can, and should give that right - within reason and without requirement of marriage.
And if anyone asked me if I were married as a condition of getting it then I would damn their eyes as a nosey parker and ask if he/she were married. It's none of their business.
The question is do we have an NHS supplying universal care/treatment or do we not? I believe in certain cases would -be patients have to make a case for their treatment to ther local NHS trusts.
Maybe we need to decide on a case by case basis.
But to deny it for a piece of paper and a ring and anathema sounds like John Knox to me!And where does the double standard come from Mr Gordon Bonnet?
If I want treatment on the NHS must I tell the doctor what I do in bed too? Or if I have any fantasies? Are you implying that if I do not tell my doctor all about my personal life I am guilty of double standards?
Because if you are - that's hogwash.
And if anyone round here is being precious then it's you. I half wish I were not married right now for if I were not then I would glory in my sinful state and ask what you felt about that.
Mother nature woud still have most of us dying after our 3 score years and 10.
Are you suggesting we stop treating the elderly cos thats the cards mother nature deals?
Its not natural to be on life support, but many come back from it to lead a full life.
Statistically you are still doing well if you make 70.
But it is an interesting diversion.
If you believe that childlessness is something to be cured. But does nature intend everyone to be fertile? I don't know.
changilass
23-Jun-10, 20:40
Statistically you are still doing well if you make 70.
But it is an interesting diversion.
If you believe that childlessness is something to be cured. But does nature intend everyone to be fertile? I don't know.
If you take the ones that don't want to away then its worth helping out those that do, that are having problems.
Surely if mother nature didn't want IVF to happen they she would not have given folks the brains to be able to make it happen.
If you take the ones that don't want to away then its worth helping out those that do, that are having problems.
Surely if mother nature didn't want IVF to happen they she would not have given folks the brains to be able to make it happen.
I really don't want to argue, I have aired my opinion thats all. But do you think Mother Nature wanted the Atom Bomb?
I really don't want to argue, I have aired my opinion thats all. But do you think Mother Nature wanted the Atom Bomb?
Of course - what do you think the sun and every single star in the sky is? Nature conceived nuclear fission far before we did...
I really don't want to argue, I have aired my opinion thats all. But do you think Mother Nature wanted the Atom Bomb?
Didn't she make it?
I had my fourth baby with a man i was not married to and indeed i was still married to someone else - its the baddest i have ever been. :roll:
There are plenty of people for whom IVF is unsuccessful and that is their sadness and something they have to learn to live with.There are plenty of women for whom cervical cancer has meant a complete hysterectomy and therefore even IVF cannot help. Male infertility is still very difficult to treat but advances are being made all the time. Do those of you who wish to remove the right to IVF treatment think that research into male infertility should stop also? Is that simply another waste of money. What about treatment for smokers and fat people or people who are driving a car and have an accident arent all these things caused by irresponsibilty in one way or another?
Whilst having children is not a "right" it is something which women may expect from their lives and so have a "right" to pursue. I agree that no one should be given IVF at an age where nature decides that they are too old - thats the natural place to stop. I dont approve of 65 year old women having IVF although there is an argument that the treatment wasnt available when they were young enough to undergo it and now it is they should be able to benefit from it. I dont agree but i dont think i could tell a woman who has longed all her life for a child and can afford to pay that she cant have IVF
What rewards do we want for being successful and financially secure or "responsible"? Our lives ARE our rewards. Thats simply it. What relevance this has to the debate about IVF is a bit beyond me but maybe people do get rewarded for behaving irresponsibly... is ending up homeless and being housed a reward, is being out of work and being paid benefit a reward, is having children and getting child benefit a reward - im not sure where REcQuery , you are going with this but im happy to be along for the ride. :D
luskentyre
24-Jun-10, 00:17
I don't believe that IVF should be available on the NHS. There there are limited funds available for what could be classed as "real" ailments and I don't believe that being unable to have children can be classed as an illness. It's unfortunate, but it's an imperfect world.
As someone said earlier, it's not a right to be able to have children. There are far too many people in the world already and I just think the money could be better spent elsewhere.
There are alternatives. If you are desperate to have children and you're not willing to consider adoption, then I would question your motivation.
changilass
24-Jun-10, 00:24
Have you any experience of the adoption process??
It aint a bed of roses thats for sure.
Not everyone who tries to adopt passes the strict criteria put in place by the adoptions agencies.
Why should someone have to prove beyond doubt that they can be a good parent and jump through hoops to be put on a waiting list in order to adopt a child (and still have no guarantee of ever being matched with a child).
The ability to have birth children just like everyone else is possible with the help of IVF.
If a kidney doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a heart doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a liver doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a stomach doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a bladder doesnt work we fix it if we can
A womb is no different surely? If a woman cant have babies her womb isnt working and so we fix it for her if we can and she has a baby. Why is a womb less worthy of treatment than a kidney or a liver or a heart or a stomach or a bladder?
Many people are willing to consider adoption if they are unsuccessful at having babies but may wish to exhaust the possibilities of having their own child first. Is THAT wrong?
changilass
24-Jun-10, 01:10
Whilst a lot of couples do go down the adoption route once they have tried everything else to have a child of their own, is this really in the best interest of the children who are waiting to be adopted?
Children do not come up for adoption for no good reason. Most have a very challenging past to say the least. Surely these kids would be better placed with families who have experience of children rather than those who have come to adoption through not being able to have birth children of their own.
Many who apply to adopt fall by the wayside during the process. It is very hard to prove you can parent if you havn't actually done it already.
Whilst a lot of couples do go down the adoption route once they have tried everything else to have a child of their own, is this really in the best interest of the children who are waiting to be adopted?
Children do not come up for adoption for no good reason. Most have a very challenging past to say the least. Surely these kids would be better placed with families who have experience of children rather than those who have come to adoption through not being able to have birth children of their own.
Many who apply to adopt fall by the wayside during the process. It is very hard to prove you can parent if you havn't actually done it already.
YOu are right it isnt always in the best interests of the child and its really hard to deal with some of the problems these children may have. But what a wonderful thing it is when the right couple find the right child.
Another thing that i am pondering whilst sitting doing this late shift and waiting in vain for the phone to ring.... Are we split on gender lines? Is this a male/female thing or not? Thats not an accusation or me trying to make a point - Im just curious as to whether those infavour of IVF being available are mostly women and those against mostly men?
*Sigh* Okay, point one: it's not a human right to have children, that's what I'm saying. If that's your argument in favour of IVF, why not allow people to get cosmetic dentistry or breast enlargement on the NHS. In the current climate we need to set some limits. If you wish to pay for it privately then I just plain don't care.
Second point: So my rewards for actually being a responsible adult, foregoing stuff, working and putting in some effort are the opportunities I created for myself with no external help. I'm happy with that, fine. My problem arises when people seem to get rewarded for behaving irresponsibly. I currently think I'm somewhat underemployed but I took it because again I'm a responsible adult.
Aye its not a human right but what are we built for? To reproduce. We like other mammals live to reproduce we just can choose to not through methods of prevention.
luskentyre
25-Jun-10, 17:31
If a kidney doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a heart doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a liver doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a stomach doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a bladder doesnt work we fix it if we can
A womb is no different surely? If a woman cant have babies her womb isnt working and so we fix it for her if we can and she has a baby. Why is a womb less worthy of treatment than a kidney or a liver or a heart or a stomach or a bladder?
Many people are willing to consider adoption if they are unsuccessful at having babies but may wish to exhaust the possibilities of having their own child first. Is THAT wrong?
I think the difference (which you've highlighted very well) is that being unable to have a baby is not going to seriously affect your health, or be potentially life-threatening.
luskentyre
25-Jun-10, 17:34
Aye its not a human right but what are we built for? To reproduce. We like other mammals live to reproduce we just can choose to not through methods of prevention.
Some people seem intent on making it their sole purpose, but I'd argue that there is far more to living than just reproducing. We're not rabbits!
Gordon Bonnet
25-Jun-10, 18:55
If a kidney doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a heart doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a liver doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a stomach doesnt work we fix it if we can
If a bladder doesnt work we fix it if we can
A womb is no different surely? If a woman cant have babies her womb isnt working and so we fix it for her if we can and she has a baby. Why is a womb less worthy of treatment than a kidney or a liver or a heart or a stomach or a bladder?
Many people are willing to consider adoption if they are unsuccessful at having babies but may wish to exhaust the possibilities of having their own child first. Is THAT wrong?
The organs you list will kill if they fail.
A barren womb leaves only a troubled mind - sometimes.
Many people, for differing reaons have 'troubled minds'
Unfulfilled, disappointment in life etc. etc.....nobody dies.
Unless they top themselves, which is a drastic over-reaction most of the time.
celtchicky
25-Jun-10, 19:38
i wonder how many of the poeple actually contributing to this thread CAN have children, whether they chose to have them or not????
i dont think you can comment truely unless you are in this position!
many people chose to have children, many people dont, but its a choice, and to have that choice taken away from you is heartbreaking. i dont have a choice in the matter and have gone through IVF twice so far.
what i dont agree with is the postcode lottery over how my cycles should be funded. it should be the same all over the country.
why should i be married?? guidelines are in a stable relationship for 2years, and i dont disagree as by the time you get referred and ready to actually start treatment then a good couple of years has passed also
this thread could go on and on. noone is going to agree!!
but think of this, take the one thing in the world that you really want, and then realise that you cant have it. then maybe you will be wanting help to access it
luskentyre
25-Jun-10, 20:35
i wonder how many of the poeple actually contributing to this thread CAN have children, whether they chose to have them or not????
i dont think you can comment truely unless you are in this position!
On the contrary, don't you think that makes our opinion a little more objective?
celtchicky
25-Jun-10, 21:01
yeh i agree it makes it more objective but the thing is you are commenting on it as a person not in the situation itself and of course you have an opinion on it, whether you agree or not
im commenting as a person in this situation and you honestly havent a clue what it feels like? to also not be able to get this sort of treatment on the NHS is not right for those people who cant afford it privately. surely you can understand that or have you never been in that kind of position?
Going by luskentyre's posts over the years he would probably prefer conception rules that would produce a master race which is of course bad. But the up-side is that there would be no more luskentyres ever again. :)
Good interesting post all round,lots of valid thought provacating statements.
Not all are as fortunate as some others, an a little bit of thought can colour your origional perception, I must say that such an emotive subject as this has brought me up in my tracts, an I am not ashamed to say it.We were blessed with 5 an we ended up adopting a pair of siblings, good place to be, throw in 20 years of fostering special needs children, an believe me thats a full life ,so if I sound like a pompous prat sometiimes-please forgive,it's so easy to sometimes just sound off, without regarding other posters legitamate concerns, best of luck to you all.
luskentyre
26-Jun-10, 08:57
Going by luskentyre's posts over the years he would probably prefer conception rules that would produce a master race which is of course bad. But the up-side is that there would be no more luskentyres ever again. :)
I'm glad you're such a follower Crayola, but you have got it hopelessly wrong. There's one thing to read posts and it's another to actually understand them.
Interestingly no one has answered the gender question......
John Little
26-Jun-10, 10:28
I am a man.
I think the difference (which you've highlighted very well) is that being unable to have a baby is not going to seriously affect your health, or be potentially life-threatening.
Ok then how about -
if an eye isnt working properly we fix it
If a hand isnt working properly we fix it
If an elbow, foot, joint, saliva gland, tear gland, wrist, thumb, toenail isnt working properly we fix them.
Why should we not fix a womb?
I have had an operation on both my wrists. I had Carpal tunnel syndrome for twenty years, life threatening? nope, bit painful, at times, yes, Inconvenient? on occasions yes but I still had them fixed.
What about a squint? MY two year old had to be investigated to check if the squinting i saw was real or not( it wasnt - an illusion caused by his little nose - ahhhhhhhhhh) You can function with a squint, its not life threatening, Your eye might might work well but it doesnt really make a huge difference in the long run, It doesnt maybe look great but hey that might cause a bit of self counsciousness but who cares. ... Fifty years ago we might have left it - now we try to fix it so that it will work and look right.
As for objective well, thats all very commendable but to be HUMAN you need to temper that with compassion and empathy or you might as well just punch stuff into a computer and let it decide for you.
John Little
26-Jun-10, 10:44
Well said!
luskentyre
26-Jun-10, 11:27
Ok then how about -
if an eye isnt working properly we fix it
If a hand isnt working properly we fix it
If an elbow, foot, joint, saliva gland, tear gland, wrist, thumb, toenail isnt working properly we fix them.
Why should we not fix a womb?
I have had an operation on both my wrists. I had Carpal tunnel syndrome for twenty years, life threatening? nope, bit painful, at times, yes, Inconvenient? on occasions yes but I still had them fixed.
What about a squint? MY two year old had to be investigated to check if the squinting i saw was real or not( it wasnt - an illusion caused by his little nose - ahhhhhhhhhh) You can function with a squint, its not life threatening, Your eye might might work well but it doesnt really make a huge difference in the long run, It doesnt maybe look great but hey that might cause a bit of self counsciousness but who cares. ... Fifty years ago we might have left it - now we try to fix it so that it will work and look right.
As for objective well, thats all very commendable but to be HUMAN you need to temper that with compassion and empathy or you might as well just punch stuff into a computer and let it decide for you.
You're still highlighting the differences quite well here! All the conditions you've mentioned will cause pain, or discomfort, or an inability to carry out everyday tasks. They all affect the quality of our lives. A condition like a squint has the potential to undermine a persons confidence and that has consequences for their entire life.
I'm not devoid of compassion or empathy, I'm saying that the NHS has to have priorities, or some people will go without essential treatment. Surely that's not acceptable or desirable?
John Little
26-Jun-10, 11:35
Well this ones had it then.....
"Hi Ladies,
I'm afraid I've often glanced through these threads during my treatments, but hoped against all hope, that I would ever need to join them. http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/cry.gif Sadly after our latest, and last unsuccessful treatment my DH and I have come to the sad decision that it is now time to give up our dreams and plans of having children. Its been a few weeks since my last BFN and I've cried enough tears to fill a bucket. I'm seeing the IF counsellor at the hospital and it is helping, but I've also decided I have to help myself. I'm determined not to spend the rest of my life as a IF victim, I don't want to be this miserable, bitter, brittle, hard-faced woman that I feel I've become. I used to be a happy, easy-going woman, kind, generous and compassionate. Now I feel so angry and bitter at the unfairness of life. I hate seeing women pushing prams, and god-forbid if I come across a pregnant woman pushing her toddler in a pram. I just want to scream 'how dare you flaunt your fertility in my face, how dare you look so happy, when you hold in your arms everything I've always dreamed of'. No... I definately don't like the kind of person I've become. http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/embarrassed.gif
Anyway I'm determined to 'move on'. I've recently discovered this book by Linda Hunt Anton called 'Never to be a Mother'. It has a kind of 10-step recovery programme (bit like the AA) and whilst I'm not saying it's suitable for everyone, it might just help. If like me, you're still hurting and struggling to cope with the fact that it is highly unlikely that you will ever be a mother, then I'd be grateful if you'd contribute to this thread as I work my way through the 10 steps. I know there is a bright, beautiful future out there somewhere, I just can't imagine it at this moment in time, but I'm determined to get there. It's the least that we deserve.
So here goes.... STEP ONE: Acknowledging and Experiencing the Loss.
The author says that there is a temptation to skip through this step, because for many of us, it's just too painful to really sit down and think about what we have lost in accepting that we will never be mothers. I've had friends who even now after 14 years of unsuccessfully TTC will still say to me 'don't give up hope' and 'I know someone who conceived naturally as soon as she stopped the IVF treatment'. I know they are trying to comfort me, but it doesn't actually help. It gives me false hope and expectation. I can't move on, if I'm always thinking there ould be a chance.... couldn't there. I need to look myself straight in the face and say 'I will never be a mother'. There are many things I need to accept 'I will never do'. The book suggests I write a list of things that will never be, so I can truely experience the reality of what I feel I've lost. So here goes...
I will never....
I will never again know the pure joy and elation of seeing the word 'pregnant' on a home pregnancy test.
I will never feel my baby moving inside me.
I will never get to decorate a nursery with baby borders, mobiles and cute fluffy toys.
I will never buy my first pair of cotton booties or ever kiss those baby toes before slipping them on.
I will never see my baby's eyes light up when I walk into the room or see her smile when I make silly faces and play 'peep-po'.
I will never buy rubber ducks or boats for bath-time.
I will never see her take her first steps or speak her first words.
I will never feel like I've made it into the exclusive 'mums club', as I proudly push my buggy round the park.
I will never hear the words 'I love you mummy' or feel her little arms around my neck.
I will never read bedtime stories and invent silly voices for the characters.
I will never watch her as she sleeps and wonder what she's dreaming.
I will never take my child to her first day at school, or stand by the school gates with the other mums at hometime.
I will never stick her badly drawn pictures and piainting on the fridge as if they are the works of a great renaissance artist.
I will never receive a 'mother's day' card, or have her bring me breakfast in bed, on this special day.
I will never have the opportunity to sit and help her with her homework.
I will never take her to the zoo, the park, the seaside, castles, stately homes and museums.
I will never make rice-crispy cakes with her, or plan craft-making activities for the school holidays.
I will never teach my child how to play 'Pooh-sticks' or watch her feed the ducks on the river.
I will never be asked for advice on school, boys, clothes and make-up.
I will never see her graduate, knowing that I was partly responsible for this beautiful, talented individual.
I will never watch my DH walking our precious child down the aisle on her wedding day. I will never see the love and pride in his eyes as he makes his 'father-of the-bride' speech.
I will never know what it feels like to be a grandmother or to give my own parents that joy.
I will never be a mother..... http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/cry.gif
Well that's my list. MY loss. I'm sure yours would be similar. I'm glad I've written it, even though I'm crying as I write this. I know different people react differently to IF, but for me it has been one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. I'm looking forward to the day when I can look back at this time in my life with sadness (of course) but not with pain. Feel free to join in this thread with your own regrets and losses. If it's too painful join me later at STEP TWO.
Helen xxx"
I'm glad you're such a follower Crayola, but you have got it hopelessly wrong. There's one thing to read posts and it's another to actually understand them.No I'm right. You can't understand me and you wouldn't be in your own master race.
Squidge is right. This is going mainly along gender lines. They don't understand.
I'm not devoid of compassion or empathy, I'm saying that the NHS has to have priorities, or some people will go without essential treatment. Surely that's not acceptable or desirable?
Essential treatments such as a heart operation for an octagenarian?
Expensive drugs for an alzheimer sufferer whose life can only eventually end up with one result only?
Throwing millions into research for a cure of a hereditary disease that can only affect 1 in 250,000?
Liver, lung, heart transplants for people who can never kick the habit?
Cancer treatments for individuals who have intentionally left it too late?
24/7 care for mentally or physically handicapped persons young or old who wish to die and are ruining the health and well being of their carers who love them dearly and wish they die also?
Accident treatments for those involved with unsocial behavior or sports?
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that any of the above are non-essential, just that different people who pay into the NHS have different priorities at different times of their lives. And now I think what else can have a positive effect on a person's well being than bringing a new life that is full potential into the world?
changilass
26-Jun-10, 12:49
You're still highlighting the differences quite well here! All the conditions you've mentioned will cause pain, or discomfort, or an inability to carry out everyday tasks. They all affect the quality of our lives. A condition like a squint has the potential to undermine a persons confidence and that has consequences for their entire life.
I'm not devoid of compassion or empathy, I'm saying that the NHS has to have priorities, or some people will go without essential treatment. Surely that's not acceptable or desirable?
Do you not think that not being able to have kids causes pain, discomfort and the ability to carry out every day tasks?
Not being able to have kids affects the day to day quality of the lives of those affected.
Being unable to have kids can and does undermine a persons confidence and most certainly has consequenses for the folks concerened for the rest of their lives.
Your compasion and empathy must have gone on holiday with regards ivf.
You're still highlighting the differences quite well here! All the conditions you've mentioned will cause pain, or discomfort, or an inability to carry out everyday tasks. They all affect the quality of our lives. A condition like a squint has the potential to undermine a persons confidence and that has consequences for their entire life.
I'm not devoid of compassion or empathy, I'm saying that the NHS has to have priorities, or some people will go without essential treatment. Surely that's not acceptable or desirable?
But being unable to conceive affects people in the same way. Hell, Henry the eighth executed wives who couldn't conceive...
Well this ones had it then.....
"Hi Ladies,
I'm afraid I've often glanced through these threads during my treatments, but hoped against all hope, that I would ever need to join them. http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/cry.gif Sadly after our latest, and last unsuccessful treatment my DH and I have come to the sad decision that it is now time to give up our dreams and plans of having children. Its been a few weeks since my last BFN and I've cried enough tears to fill a bucket. I'm seeing the IF counsellor at the hospital and it is helping, but I've also decided I have to help myself. I'm determined not to spend the rest of my life as a IF victim, I don't want to be this miserable, bitter, brittle, hard-faced woman that I feel I've become. I used to be a happy, easy-going woman, kind, generous and compassionate. Now I feel so angry and bitter at the unfairness of life. I hate seeing women pushing prams, and god-forbid if I come across a pregnant woman pushing her toddler in a pram. I just want to scream 'how dare you flaunt your fertility in my face, how dare you look so happy, when you hold in your arms everything I've always dreamed of'. No... I definately don't like the kind of person I've become. http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/embarrassed.gif
Anyway I'm determined to 'move on'. I've recently discovered this book by Linda Hunt Anton called 'Never to be a Mother'. It has a kind of 10-step recovery programme (bit like the AA) and whilst I'm not saying it's suitable for everyone, it might just help. If like me, you're still hurting and struggling to cope with the fact that it is highly unlikely that you will ever be a mother, then I'd be grateful if you'd contribute to this thread as I work my way through the 10 steps. I know there is a bright, beautiful future out there somewhere, I just can't imagine it at this moment in time, but I'm determined to get there. It's the least that we deserve.
So here goes.... STEP ONE: Acknowledging and Experiencing the Loss.
The author says that there is a temptation to skip through this step, because for many of us, it's just too painful to really sit down and think about what we have lost in accepting that we will never be mothers. I've had friends who even now after 14 years of unsuccessfully TTC will still say to me 'don't give up hope' and 'I know someone who conceived naturally as soon as she stopped the IVF treatment'. I know they are trying to comfort me, but it doesn't actually help. It gives me false hope and expectation. I can't move on, if I'm always thinking there ould be a chance.... couldn't there. I need to look myself straight in the face and say 'I will never be a mother'. There are many things I need to accept 'I will never do'. The book suggests I write a list of things that will never be, so I can truely experience the reality of what I feel I've lost. So here goes...
I will never....
I will never again know the pure joy and elation of seeing the word 'pregnant' on a home pregnancy test.
I will never feel my baby moving inside me.
I will never get to decorate a nursery with baby borders, mobiles and cute fluffy toys.
I will never buy my first pair of cotton booties or ever kiss those baby toes before slipping them on.
I will never see my baby's eyes light up when I walk into the room or see her smile when I make silly faces and play 'peep-po'.
I will never buy rubber ducks or boats for bath-time.
I will never see her take her first steps or speak her first words.
I will never feel like I've made it into the exclusive 'mums club', as I proudly push my buggy round the park.
I will never hear the words 'I love you mummy' or feel her little arms around my neck.
I will never read bedtime stories and invent silly voices for the characters.
I will never watch her as she sleeps and wonder what she's dreaming.
I will never take my child to her first day at school, or stand by the school gates with the other mums at hometime.
I will never stick her badly drawn pictures and piainting on the fridge as if they are the works of a great renaissance artist.
I will never receive a 'mother's day' card, or have her bring me breakfast in bed, on this special day.
I will never have the opportunity to sit and help her with her homework.
I will never take her to the zoo, the park, the seaside, castles, stately homes and museums.
I will never make rice-crispy cakes with her, or plan craft-making activities for the school holidays.
I will never teach my child how to play 'Pooh-sticks' or watch her feed the ducks on the river.
I will never be asked for advice on school, boys, clothes and make-up.
I will never see her graduate, knowing that I was partly responsible for this beautiful, talented individual.
I will never watch my DH walking our precious child down the aisle on her wedding day. I will never see the love and pride in his eyes as he makes his 'father-of the-bride' speech.
I will never know what it feels like to be a grandmother or to give my own parents that joy.
I will never be a mother..... http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/cry.gif
Well that's my list. MY loss. I'm sure yours would be similar. I'm glad I've written it, even though I'm crying as I write this. I know different people react differently to IF, but for me it has been one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. I'm looking forward to the day when I can look back at this time in my life with sadness (of course) but not with pain. Feel free to join in this thread with your own regrets and losses. If it's too painful join me later at STEP TWO.
Helen xxx"
Very rarely am I moved to tears by anything I read on this forum. I have several friends who could have written that. I remember their sadness and their tears, I remember their anger and their depression.
Thank you x
Gordon Bonnet
26-Jun-10, 13:53
The list of things seems to me a slightly idealised, overly sentimental view
of parenting.
Edited* - I have withdrawn my other comments (available if anyone wishes to pm. me) - out of respect for the poster and her feelings.
Initially I thought this list was drawn up by an authoress for some book or other....closer attention has revealed that it ain't.
John Little
26-Jun-10, 14:12
For what you are about to receive,
Oh Lord,
Make you truly thankful. :eek:
Gordon Bonnet
26-Jun-10, 16:34
For what you are about to receive,
Oh Lord,
Make you truly thankful. :eek:
I re-visited, and re-considered following your comment.
Though I'm not sure if you were trying to be helpful, or merely stirring the pot.
John Little
26-Jun-10, 16:42
Oh don't mind me - I was just going to watch what the women said about your comparison.
Gladiator games...
I think you wiser than I did.
John Little
26-Jun-10, 16:45
Further to above - you may care to read this in light of your existing comment;
http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=239919.0
I have read the list and would be pleased if you would point out the bits you think idealised or overly sentimental.
Of course if we put the whole thing in its context.....
luskentyre
26-Jun-10, 21:17
No I'm right. You can't understand me and you wouldn't be in your own master race.
Squidge is right. This is going mainly along gender lines. They don't understand.
"No I'm right". Oh, the arrogance and the irony. You accuse me of advocating some kind of master race and yet you seem so convinced of your own superiority.
Further to above - you may care to read this in light of your existing comment;
http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=239919.0
I have read the list and would be pleased if you would point out the bits you think idealised or overly sentimental.
Of course if we put the whole thing in its context.....
Thank you for posting that JL.
The illiterati of your gender would do well to study it.
I support IVF treatment on the NHS for all the reasons mentioned. However I think there should be a limit on how many courses should be available to a couple before they have to start paying for the course of treatment themselves.
There are lots of other ailments that are just as important.
I might be wrong but I was recently told by someone who tried IVF, that you get 2 tries via the NHS.
I might be wrong but I was recently told by someone who tried IVF, that you get 2 tries via the NHS.
From what I understand, it depends.
celtchicky
27-Jun-10, 11:15
it does depend on what are you are in unforunately.
for the highlands tho, you are entitiled to 3 full fresh cycles, and any subsequent frozen cycles. ie: if you were lucky enough to have any frozen embryos from those fresh cycles.
http://www.aberdeenfertility.org.uk/uploads/files/PI-GN-0007.pdf
or
http://www.aberdeenfertility.org.uk/costs/
or
http://www.hfea.gov.uk/
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