View Full Version : Anti Scottish feeling in England.....
landmarker
21-Jun-06, 17:29
With English people attacked in Scotland by and the widely reported attitude of 'anyone but England' north of the border there is, I regret, a bit of momentum growing here against the Scottish.
The world cup fervour, or lack of it, might have unforseen consequences for Gordon Brown's chances of ever taking up Prime Ministerial power.
A two page spread in the Daily Mail today re-inforced this feeling of alienation.
Written by Tim Luckhurst, a former editor of the 'Scotsman' and a resident of Glasgow for twenty odd years. He reckoned that the introduction of devolution had weakened traditional ties and loyalties on both sides of the border. He also highlighted the vast number of Scots in our Parliament, and in positions of influence, and mooted the possibility of an Englishman ever becoming Scotlands first minister. It was a very short mooting (ie no chance)The same can be said of Wales I'd imagine.
All this is very sad. I 've said it doesn't matter who one supports in any sports match but things are going beyond this now, and if we are not careful then auld enmities will become a schism, and then a chasm.
Does anyone really want this?
A long time lover of Scotland, and harbouring a desire to live there one day, I must admit my ideas have been ever so slightly jolted.
Is it an 'underdog' thing? England has never been one has it, really? Is that why so many here shout for the underdog and would embrace a Scotland victory as one akin to our own. (Olympic Curling for instance) Yet so many Scots seem to bitterly resent an English presence in Germany, let alone progress.
This is wider than the world cup, and why I have not posted under the 'banter' thread. The violence is most regrettable, and given the scurrilous nature of the red top tabloids much will be made of it. It is a dangerous development and one which must be kept in perspective on both sides of the border, otherwise we will all be the losers.
orkneylass
21-Jun-06, 17:38
Hi - I would not overreact to anti-English feeling in Scotland although there is undoubtedly some. If you move here you need to get known as an individual. As you say, England has never been the underdog, and has frequently been the oppressor. The problem is not so much history, as the here and now arrogance, loud mouthed, obnoxiousness of SOME english people who patronise the locals, try to change everything, and show no sensitivity for those with 10+ generations buried in the local churchyard.
I feel entitled to say this as an incomer to my chosen community - the anti-English feeling is sometimes based on bad experiences, those who come up to live on benefits and put a strain on local services, rather than contributing to local life, or the loads-a-money braggers with their 4 x 4's, complete with airconditioning, and a conservatory biiger than the house!
I respect the local people, know I can never belong here the way they do, and have no wish to change what attracted me up here in the first place - as long as you do the same, you'll be very welcome. Scotland is facing the biggest population fall of any small country in Europe over the next 30 years - we really need immigrants, but they will have to respect the local culture.
porshiepoo
21-Jun-06, 17:57
My opinions on this matter are probably well known on here, usually being one to shoot off at the mouth and having what I am trying to say end up sounding nothing like it.
I can honestly say that the only Scottish comment I came across in England was when we were first thinking of moving up here and someone said to me 'The scots hate the English, have a grudge against them that goes back years and is especially worse in the Highlands'.
I must say it didn't put us off - obviously - but that is the only thing I ever heard against the Scots.
Mostly up here I've come across banter (mainly on this org lol) except for a few comments in the town.
It's easy to be paranoid about such things here and in England when you're aware that it does go on.
Orkneylass: I get what you're saying, however I think slightly differently.
I don't believe that a persons birth in England or Scotland gives them more or less of a right to live there than someone else who was born elsewhere on this island.
At the end of the day it's all the UK, we all have British passports and we're all living in Britain - from John O Groats to Lands End.
I personally think that it's these ancient handed down prejudices (whether it's England or Scotland) that keep alive the discord between England & Scotland and I also think that thats what it is intended to do.
Don't get me wrong our grandfathers perhaps lived in a time when hostilities between the two were expected but seriously, let it go! (Not you Orkneylass, just all in general)
You made the comment about the incomers taking the jobs etc but when that comment is made by others regarding the immigrants, everyone gets up in arms and says they're doing jobs we're too lazy to or 'what does it matter if they're paying their way?'.
The animosity between England and Scotland needs to stop, it serves no purpose to either, except breeding contempt generation after generation.
Yes, awful things were carried by both and to each other but that was history, we should learn from the barbaric acts of the past and learn to move forward, not accept that Scotland is for the Scots only and that we should accept that we'll never truly belong or be accepted. (I honestly cannot say the same for England as I knew many scots down there and never once did they feel alienated)
I myself am english and I can honestly say hand on heart I have never had a bad word said to about me being english i've had banter and a laugh from my friends here but nothing bad at all and as far as I know nither have any of my three children. I think the poeple up here have accepted us for who we are and not from where we come from.:D
I was always taught "Do as you would be done by". Its the way people should treat each other. I know this sounds like I live in Cloud Cuckoo land but hey I can dream, ala Martin Luther King.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P.S. I could not care less who wins the football....I just wish they would stop ousting "The Bill" to accomodate it. RANT OVER
Since moving up here a few years ago I and her indoors have felt no annimosity at all and everyone has welcomed us with open arms. The only time the English word is mentioned is when football is talked about. I'm passionate about my footy be it my local or national team (the stick I get by supporting my local team is horrendous and also hearing the rival premiership side on the TV all the time drove me mad) so I do know how it feels to have it rammed down your throats. I love the banter but I know I should curb it - someone always goes too far, and I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone else getting hurt.
It's disgraceful that these people have been attacked especially one being a child and the other disabled- does friendly banter lead to this? If so I shall be zipping it, I want no part in that!
England as mentioned on an earlier thread has it's fair share of violent hooligans, Scotland is no different, or the rest of the world but I have a feeling this will get worse - made worse by the media.
Landmarker - I wouldn't worry about relocating, the place is fantastic and the people are better, I have never been made to feel an outsider up here, maybe an English hooligan but hey, part of the fun!;)
I think it goes on on both sides of the border and I have been on the receiving end of some while in the Forces but I take people as I find them, indeed my best mate is a lad from Devon who has lived in Scotland so long he considers himself virtually Scottish, he rang me to offer congratulations when we beat England in the six nations !!, At the end of the day it is a minority on both sides, let these babies have their bottles I say.
While in the Forces I saw banter of all kinds between all the Home Nations but when push came to shove we stuck together as Brits .. :cool:
landmarker
21-Jun-06, 20:22
Don't get me wrong our grandfathers perhaps lived in a time when hostilities between the two were expected but seriously, let it go! )
Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.
porshiepoo
21-Jun-06, 21:54
Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.
Point taken but you know what I meant. :lol:
I'm just trying to point out that I think the hostilities are pointless, futile and a complete waste of time and energy.
We all have our banter on here and I think alot of us could be accused of going to far at some point or another (many time for me I'm afraid), but at the end of the day there is no point to it is there?
I too have never incurred any hostility when north of the border and have always found the people courteous.friendly.good humoured and more than ready to explain when a question is asked or a word not understood.
With regard to the reports today about football fans being assaulted for flying a flag that was not accepatble, I would put that down to general moronic behaviour and nothing to do with nationality.It's the same sort of person who attacks another because of their colour,creed or sexuality.These people are to be pitied for their lack of understanding,bigotry and general ignorance.
Well we all know which side of the border has the biggest chip on its shoulders don't we?:roll:
Perhaps you are much older than I thought, but I'd imagine our generations'Grandads' both English & Scot were shoulder to shoulder in the trenches, fighting the hun, as the Germans were referred to at that time.
Not quite. I watched a programme on SKY Discovery about the role of Scottish bagpipers in combat. They proved their worth in raising morale in battle so much with the Scottish regiments during WW1 that some were seconded to English regiments as well. A veteran of that era hastened to add that many of the pipers refused to be sent.
If the assaults on the England Supporter which occurred today are the same ones I have just heard reported on the Radio then I don't particularly attribute it to any anti-English sentiment.
By the accounts given one was an assault by a jogger who on a seven year old boy. The other was carried out by somebody who was a little braver, he assaulted a 40 year old man, but he was only brave enough to do it because his victim was severely disabled.
Personally I consider people who carry out such deeds to be Scum whatever their Nationality, Race or Creed. Where ever they are from or whatever the excuse they will act in the same moronic way.
I suspect that the people who are most disgusted by such behaviour are the Scots themselves. Using National Sentiment as an excuse to assault a small child and somebody with a severe disability I think would offend the people of any Nation. From experience, they certainly are not typical of any Scot I have ever met either here in Scotland or elsewhere and there have been some rather rum characters amongst them.
The Pepsi Challenge
22-Jun-06, 04:53
If the assaults on the England Supporter which occurred today are the same ones I have just heard reported on the Radio then I don't particularly attribute it to any anti-English sentiment.
By the accounts given one was an assault by a jogger who on a seven year old boy. The other was carried out by somebody who was a little braver, he assaulted a 40 year old man, but he was only brave enough to do it because his victim was severely disabled.
Personally I consider people who carry out such deeds to be Scum whatever their Nationality, Race or Creed. Where ever they are from or whatever the excuse they will act in the same moronic way.
I suspect that the people who are most disgusted by such behaviour are the Scots themselves. Using National Sentiment as an excuse to assault a small child and somebody with a severe disability I think would offend the people of any Nation. From experience, they certainly are not typical of any Scot I have ever met either here in Scotland or elsewhere and there have been some rather rum characters amongst them.
Totally agree with you JAWS. Turns out the man who assaulted the 40-year-old was a Rangers supporter. Which is confusing considering their support sings God Save The Queen and Rule Brittannia, and waves the British Union Jack and Red Hand flag of the mickey mouse partial province, yet acts like that? Total disgrace. That's as much as I'm going to say on the subject, as the mods don't want this descending into a 'football thang'. Anyway, Scotsboy will be along shortly to say it was a Celtic supporter wearing a Rangers jersey on purpose.
porshiepoo
22-Jun-06, 08:38
With reference to the 'banter' that goes on on here and in public by both the English and the scots, I guess I have to ask myself every now again 'How much of it is lighthearted banter and how much of it is genuine animosity disguised as light hearted banter?'. Unfortunately I have a sneaky feeling that alot of it may be the latter.
We all know that this animosity exists here (and elsewhere) but is probably kept behind closed doors and in my book that doesn't make it any better or more acceptable.
Like I said before though, paranoia is a powerful thing and I'm now finding myself re-thinking about comments that locals have made to me in the past and wondering what if..........
As for the footie hooligans. Unfortunately boys will be boys and when theres a big ball involved (ironic) all common sense just seems to be lost in that 'manly'(?) need to beat everyone else, and that goes for every creed, colour and race.
England have idiot hooligans such as those that have been mentioned on here before as does scotland - The guy who got quite down and dirty with his kilt recently letting everyone know there is nothing underneath and then resisting arrest for public indecency.
I moved to scotland quite along time ago when I was 12 and the reception I got with an English accent in school was less than light-hearted.It was the first time I'd experienced being a complete outsider, though I'm Scottish with an English accent it doesn't matter.So the parents may think it's light hearted banter but do their children?
Even as an adult I still come in for the same about my accent, maybe it's funny the first couple of times but after years of it , it gets very boring.The whole anti english thing I find pathetic, it shows weakness in a nation to have to hate the other side ,which is the same as football, you don't have to hate the other side to be proud of your own.
My first experience of Scotland was as a young Soldier in REME being posted to Redford Cavalry Barracks, Edinburgh, to the Scottish Tank Regt - 4 RTR - and then going overseas with them. WE had no race or other problems.
Since then we have spent many holidays here, and enjoyed everyone.
Once retired we moved to Caithness - We should have done it years ago.
WE have made many friends and enjoy OUR community.
Yes - I shout for England at Football - Cricket - Rugby If we are not playing then I shout for Scotland - Wales - Ireland or last night I shouted for Holland.
Who cares - my Scottish neighbour does'nt.
The tabloid media will make hay with the Scotsman that threw away a used matchstick in Wales whilst riding on a German made English Train, eating Italien food.
We have to keep our sense - and regardless of who you are - it is still nice to be BRITSH and when asked for country of birth I write England - when asked for my Nationality I say British. Even now it still means something in the world - for better or worse.
IT IS ONLY A VERY SMALL MINORITY THE CAUSE THE PROBLEMS.
The rest of us will carry on as we always do.
As to the question about "The chip on the shoulder" - the best way of dealing with that has always been to "pat it off".
Remember we still live in the UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITAIN and NORTHERN IRELAND.
im probably the most english of people u will ever meet, the people who know me will agree too. I love Scotland, Its one of the only things i have done right.
The people here are awesome, friendly and helpful, I have made great friends and look for more too. I have been here 3 years and received only minor anti-english from drunk men in the street. But i would never move back to england i love caithness to much now, sorry to those anti english guys :)
I do agree though that some English and Scottish people have made these feelings worse then what they really are. The problems arise when people take note to what is happening and take sides.
So dont take sides and stick down the middle and it will all blow over.
Naefearjustbeer
22-Jun-06, 12:22
I was quite disgusted by the reports on the radio about the assaults, as mentioned before the perpetrators are by no way representive of Scotland and Scottish people. However there are moronic idiots everywhare that commit crimes for many other mindless reasons. The fact that the world cup is on at the moment probally is a valid excuse in these small minded idiots. I have no time for idiots or football.
I am I suppose as guilty as many other scottish people with my anti english banter. And banter is exactly what it is. I do not seek out and victimise or assualt english people. I have friends that are english and they throw Jock jokes in my direction just as much as I thow english jokes at them. It is a 2 way street. I cannot see the harm in that. I always give people the same chances no matter where they come from or what colour they may be. I deal with each person as an individual as I hope they do with me.
I have heard so many jokes about tightfisted ginger haired jocks. I supose it is only fair that I am allowed to joke about the english in return :lol: We have just had some english guys working with us and they have been slagging us off for not even getting into the world cup!! Did we beat them up? No we just threw cheek back at them.
landmarker
22-Jun-06, 15:15
The central thrust behind originating this thread was that there is now evidence of a backlash south of the border. I take all your comments on board, and I too, hope this soon blows over. When this football tournament is out of the way perhaps. I do think though that some Scottish politicians at Westminster will pay some kind of price for this.
Nationalism is on the rise in England. I do not welcome it as ideally, I subscribe to the 'British' viewpoint and consider all of mainland Britain my natural home, except perhaps the far west of north Wales, where I cannot, sadly, speak their language, which is more in evidence than Gaelic up north.
I fly an English flag on my car on the days we are playing in the tournament*, but I will remove this next week when I motor north, I suppose I would not feel comfortable leaving it on, in consideration of where I was - a different country.This is not a contradiction. Scotland and England ARE different places.
I would not see a need for similar action if a saltyre was hoisted heading south however, especially if it were football related.
I'd remove it as a token of respect and not because I was 'feart' of getting duffed up. After all, that symbol has undoubtedly been used in anger in times gone by as a rallying point for invaders and pillagers. So , off it would come. Common sense? Deference ? Hopefully both, although there are few occasions the two go together.
* leaving it on all the time increases fuel consumption - drag.
With English people attacked in Scotland by and the widely reported attitude of 'anyone but England' north of the border there is, I regret, a bit of momentum growing here against the Scottish.
The world cup fervour, or lack of it, might have unforseen consequences for Gordon Brown's chances of ever taking up Prime Ministerial power.
A two page spread in the Daily Mail today re-inforced this feeling of alienation.
Written by Tim Luckhurst, a former editor of the 'Scotsman' and a resident of Glasgow for twenty odd years. He reckoned that the introduction of devolution had weakened traditional ties and loyalties on both sides of the border. He also highlighted the vast number of Scots in our Parliament, and in positions of influence, and mooted the possibility of an Englishman ever becoming Scotlands first minister. It was a very short mooting (ie no chance)The same can be said of Wales I'd imagine.
All this is very sad. I 've said it doesn't matter who one supports in any sports match but things are going beyond this now, and if we are not careful then auld enmities will become a schism, and then a chasm.
Does anyone really want this?
Well I certainly don't, Landmarker, and I agree with you that it's all very sad. I've never cared for feelings of hostility between English and Scots. As I've said before, I am thankful that I was brought up in Thurso, where I had neighbours and and school friends from both sides of the border. We didn't select our pals based on where they were from, because it really didn't matter. As a Scot, I can't say that I've ever been treated with any kind of anti-Scottish sentiments whilst in England, north or south. This applied to visits both in childhood and adulthood, and when I lived in England for a year in the early 90s.
Lnadmarker, its the SNPs only route to independence - get the English so fed up with the Jocks that they want to break away from Scotland.
I have added my opinion here once before but have just noticed a comment in Landmarkers first post .. "the number of Scots in our Parliament" .. firstly Westminster is not the English Parliament as it decides policy for the Whole of the United Kingdom unlike the Scottish Parliament which decides only Scottish Affairs .. Now I am the first to admit that Scottish MP's at Westminster should not vote on purely English Affairs .. that is only fair.
But the tone of this comment that firstly Westminster is the English Parliament somehow underlines the basic attitude of the English in some ways in that we are all British as long as the English are in charge .. lets face it with 50 odd MP's at Westminster the Scots had no influence over things that directly affected them (and the Welsh were in the same boat).. the Poll tax was voted through by a majority of English MP's to Scotland two years before England and that broke the Act of Union by taxing one part of the UK more than the others .. how many English MP's cared or voiced an opinion that *gasp* maybe Scottish affairs should be decided by the Scots?? .. Not one that I can remeber ..thankfully that cannot happen today with the Scottish Parliament.
I find this attitude of some English people saying Scots have too much influence etc slightly disturbing .. is it indicative of how our country is viewed in England ?? .. that we are supposed to be quiet and let our supposed English superiours get on with running our lives ?? .. In my opinion I think that is the way Scotland is viewed in England in some circles .. as a neighbour who should be seen and not heard .. and from ther other side why the Scots generally feel the underdog and have something to prove.
I would Support Scottish Independence but am always confused about English Comments that we are a burden and get more than our fair share etc .. and these same people argue aginst Scotland being independent .. strange .. The Act of Union is 300 years old next year but lets face it folks the Scots fought the English for longer than that so I dont see it as permanent really
The English need to realise that we are not Englandshire and us Scots need to drop the chip off our shoulder .. maybe then we can all get on better.
Dave Taylor
23-Jun-06, 03:32
Yesterday I went to Great Malvern in Worcestershire. In the main shopping area, about ten or a dozen shops had Union flags on poles, and there were about three St George flags on poles, including outsisde the local council offices. So I guess there is some feeling for the footie there. By contrast, the travel agents had a sign up saying "Do you wish the Wayne would go away? Why not go away on a mini-break to..."
Then, within five minutes, I was on my way up onto the Malvern Hills -- a beautiful north-south ridge that undulates along the border with Herefordshire, for bout five miles. It was very breezy on top, but a grand day for walking and thinking.
It's quite a popular walk. Most of the people I saw were in ones or twos, widely separated but there were two large school parties, one of about 20, the other of about 30, kids. A few of them were wearing the dreaded red jersey [See! I'm getting there at last!], but I was not attacked, and didn't even get any sneery comments. Perhaps I should mention that I was in the kilt.
So, in that area at least, I felt safe from "racial" attack. But I wonder if I would have gotten away with it, if I'd marched through one of the big housing estates on the edge of, say, Bristol? Does anyone know the location of the two attacks that started this thread?
well animosity feeling of hate population decline weve got it all here. why are we in scotland undergoing a population fall young people moving out older people moving in our youth and future leaving in droves no work no future. this country scotland the highlands turning into a giant retirment home and play ground for people who where not born and bread here. they get a great reception when the come here no wonder when youve got money to spent evry ones glad to see you. we should be trying to keep our you folk here make it more attractive we only have one big well paying employer ie the nuke site but perhaps thats about to change. well no i am not a racist nor am i anti incomer but i certainly dont want hour heritage to disapear and it will eventualy just like the new super regiments hundreds of years of tradition gone and no one said a word.
porshiepoo
23-Jun-06, 09:00
well animosity feeling of hate population decline weve got it all here. why are we in scotland undergoing a population fall young people moving out older people moving in our youth and future leaving in droves no work no future. this country scotland the highlands turning into a giant retirment home and play ground for people who where not born and bread here. they get a great reception when the come here no wonder when youve got money to spent evry ones glad to see you. we should be trying to keep our you folk here make it more attractive we only have one big well paying employer ie the nuke site but perhaps thats about to change. well no i am not a racist nor am i anti incomer but i certainly dont want hour heritage to disapear and it will eventualy just like the new super regiments hundreds of years of tradition gone and no one said a word.
Whether incomers (awful word) carry on coming here or not Caithness is still going to change radically.
The improvements (loosely said) that are taking shape up here will change the area just as much as the origins of it's inhabitants.
Most will agree that Caithness needs some improvement but when does it stop? We won't be able to say 'OK thats great, no more please'. Caithness is never going to be the same again believe me, there is alot of development earmarked for up here.
Yes it will be a shame if all of the Highlands heritage and history is lost in the momentum of progression but the way to keep history alive is not to hate the people who are coming up for this pace of life.
To be honest I would love it if Caithness stayed as it is but thats a selfish way to think. The only way we are going to encourage our kids to stay and produce more generations of those 'born & bred' is to progress - tolerance as well as economically - otherwise the youngsters will just be all too quick to get out.
Well compo
lets see
There are certainly a lot of retired people but there are also lots of "incomers" coming here who are working - dounreay is one example of that, I myself moved here with a family and children and worked as did my then husband. My eldest son is now working and remains in Caithness. Read the posts and you will find people here of working age posting all the time. You are right to say the population is falling and much of that is about lack of opportunity in employment and education for young people. keep your fingers crossed that Uhi brings good quality educational opportunities for those youngsters I also think that you are mistaken about the heritage thing - one of the reasons people love Scotland and want to live here is an affinity and an interest in Scotland and scottish heritage. In fact many "english people" are more scottish than the scots in thier understanding of the history and heritage.
Robert the Bruce and is part of a living history group - off the top of my head the group includes a south african couple(40s), an australian guy(24), a guy from the lebanon (27) a german lady (32) a welsh guy (32) eight english people and ten or more scottish people. all of them working and all of them bringing something rather than taking away from this amazing place we choose to live in and make our home.
We all take elocution lessons too and can now say "achiltiebuie" ( maybe cant spell it) and we can roll our "r"s with the best of them!!!
When I was a kid I was branded as a gleeber and I accepted that tag. There were Shore streeters and Durness streeters and Springparkers on the go in those days. At that time the Weekers were on another planet. Then the atomicers came along. Poor sods. I hated them. There was something different about them, although, if I had been asked, I wouldnt have been able to say what it was, apart from the funny way they spoke. Mind you, one consolation was, when they arrived, the leader of the gleebers (JoJo) had other kids to torment and take his frustrations out on. I remember JoJo used to speak with a German accent when he was interogating us. It's funny now, but at the time it was terrifying.
I believe the beginnings of the type of behaviour your talking about here, lie in those childhood experiences. Landmarkers English to the core, but he would gladly swap it and belong amongst the Scots, and if we didnt harbour the same nationalistic identity thing, there would be no problem. But then, if there was no nationalistic thing, there would be no Scots. I wonder what we would be then?
Football reminds me of a brand of who-am-I-ness called totemism. It's an old old method of tribal identification, still practiced by primitive tribes, and has evolved into modern day religions which now hold us together as societies and tear us apart as civilisations.
In my opinion the problem arises because of who we think we are, rather than how we are.
well animosity feeling of hate population decline weve got it all here. why are we in scotland undergoing a population fall young people moving out older people moving in our youth and future leaving in droves no work no future. this country scotland the highlands turning into a giant retirment home and play ground for people who where not born and bread here. they get a great reception when the come here no wonder when youve got money to spent evry ones glad to see you. we should be trying to keep our you folk here make it more attractive we only have one big well paying employer ie the nuke site but perhaps thats about to change. well no i am not a racist nor am i anti incomer but i certainly dont want hour heritage to disapear and it will eventualy just like the new super regiments hundreds of years of tradition gone and no one said a word.
There are more Scots in England than there are English in Scotland. Should the Engish be miffed that the Scots are harming their heritage or do they need an bigger cattle prod?
The decision to amalgamate the Scots regiments was taken by Scots.
We are a melting pot for pity's sake!
well animosity feeling of hate population decline weve got it all here. why are we in scotland undergoing a population fall young people moving out older people moving in our youth and future leaving in droves no work no future. this country scotland the highlands turning into a giant retirment home and play ground for people who where not born and bread here. they get a great reception when the come here no wonder when youve got money to spent evry ones glad to see you. we should be trying to keep our you folk here make it more attractive we only have one big well paying employer ie the nuke site but perhaps thats about to change. well no i am not a racist nor am i anti incomer but i certainly dont want hour heritage to disapear and it will eventualy just like the new super regiments hundreds of years of tradition gone and no one said a word.
The history of Caithness is one of fishing, agriculture, quarrying and above all the service industries, the greatest export always has been people. There never was one big employer to feed the county, just a lot of individual crofter fishermen and the like each doing their bit and collectively employing a lot of other people.
Times change, corporatism pushes out the small man, you have to be big to compete so there must be changes made but there plenty of opportunities for a place like Caithness especially now in the age of computers where it's easy for many to work from home.
Just as in the old days when someone worked at the fishing in the fishing season and had a few acres of land to suplement their income people can work over the internet at a whole range of things while having a few acres of land to work either for a small profit or as a hoby thus keeping a way of life alive and preserving the heritage and traditions of Caithness.
The alternative is to cover the land with factories and housing estates and import loads of people from other areas, loads and loads of people, loads and loads of houses because in this day and age you have to be big to compete in the major industries.
We are a melting pot for pity's sake!
Pity is the operative word, Rheghead. Personally I can only pity those that cannot/will not accept that the world is changing at a huge pace. I can only pity those that cannot see the richness that that change brings. I can only pity those that don't realise that life and history are all about monumentous changes. And pity for those that dig in their heels in trying to keep their world the way it was.
Many people (some of them here) feel disinfranchised because their social roles are fast becoming obselete. Maybe because they made a choice to refuse any change and found themselves left behind for that choice. You cannot hold the world at bay; it will break your door down sooner or later. Might be better just to open it, if only a little.
[quote=gleeber] At that time the Weekers were on another planet.
The Weekers are still on that planet Gleeber, its called Earth! :lol:
Dave Taylor
23-Jun-06, 12:35
Two items spotted today.
1. I found this in the Newsround section of the BBC’s Freeview version of Cefax:
“Police in Scotland are hunting a man who attacked a seven-year-old boy, apparently for wearing an England top.
Hugo Clapshaw and his dad Damon were punched by a man in a Rangers football top as they walked through a park near to their home on Saturday.
‘He whacked me on the head very, very hard and it’s left a big bruise,’ said Hugo, originally from New Zealand. ‘It was maybe because I had an England shirt on. He told my dad I should be supporting Scotland not England.’”
I think this gives us a clue. The attacker had no way of knowing that the boy and his dad were not Scots (without asking them), but Scotland are not playing in the World Cup, so who should the boy be supporting at this time? I wonder–Would the attacker have hit a boy wearing a Celtic shirt?
Perhaps the attack was not “racist” after all, but “loyalist” (in the sense that many fans are strongly loyal to their team of choice). For many footie fans, soccer is more than “just a game”, and there are other passions involved. Passion can be a dangerous thing.
2. In Radio Times for w/c 24 June (page 145 in our regional edition), a viewer has written in to ask:
‘The BBC TV’s World Cup theme seems to be the old hymn Thine Be the Glory. Am I right? Why on earth was that chosen?’
The answer (please be patient and read it all!) was:
‘You’re half right: it’s called Sports Prepare and was adapted by the composer and conductor Carl Davis from See the Conquering Hero Comes, the chorus of Handel’s 1747 oratorio Judas Maccabaeus. Although the French lyricist Edmond Budry put words to the same melody in 1884 to create A Toi la Gloire, later translated as Thine Be the Glory, the tune has also traditionally been used in Britain to welcome home victorious armies, navies and football teams. Davis’s new version is performed by the BBC Concert Orchestra and the BBC Singers. Some Scottish viewers, though, have already objected to the choice of theme tune – on the grounds that the “conquering hero” originally celebrated in the oratorio was the Duke of Cumberland, who crushed the Jacobite army’
And that leads neatly, if lengthily, to the Butcher and his hated Apron!
[Incidentally, to end on a lighter note, I recommend the Newsround section, because it often contains snippets that don’t appear elsewhere until much later, if at all. For example, it’s a hot spot for fans of Harry Potter and J K Rowling]
The decision to amalgamate the Scots regiments was taken by Scots.
As far as I understand, the decision to reduce the Scots regiments was taken by MoD and as far as I remember that department is still controlled by Westminster, so to say that Scots took the decision to amalgamate is a little bit far fetched.
Just a mute point
As far as I understand, the decision to reduce the Scots regiments was taken by MoD and as far as I remember that department is still controlled by Westminster, so to say that Scots took the decision to amalgamate is a little bit far fetched.
Just a mute point
Tony Blair is a Scot, he had the last word on it.
lassieinfife
23-Jun-06, 14:14
Originally Posted by Rheghead
The decision to amalgamate the Scots regiments was taken by Scots.
We are a melting pot for pity's sake!...........
ggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I was brought up within the army family and my dad's regiment has been amalgamated several times,he and others I know were never consulted as to whether this was good or bad...
My dad started of in The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, they were amalgamated with the Seaforth Highlanders and became The Queens Own Highlanders.... then reduced to The Highlanders sadly they have vanished into history............... but no doubt if England ever gets involved in another world war Britannia will look to the highlands to fill her army,as she has done countless times before.
Before anyone thinks I am anti English let me assure you all that I am not and never have been, I have English relatives and many English friends whom I cherish dearly
Tony Blair is a Scot, he had the last word on it.
Wow so we really are responsible for all the troubles in the World, thanks for reminding me Rheg, even though our Tony was born in Edinburgh and educated in a posh Edinburgh school, he was brought up in Durham, so he has been contaminated. That explains a lot!!!!!
Dave Taylor
23-Jun-06, 14:21
Two items spotted today.
1. I found this in the Newsround section of the BBC’s Freeview version of Cefax:
“Police in Scotland are hunting a man who attacked a seven-year-old boy, apparently for wearing an England top.
Hugo Clapshaw and his dad Damon were punched by a man in a Rangers football top as they walked through a park near to their home on Saturday.
‘He whacked me on the head very, very hard and it’s left a big bruise,’ said Hugo, originally from New Zealand. ‘It was maybe because I had an England shirt on. He told my dad I should be supporting Scotland not England.’”
I think this gives us a clue. The attacker had no way of knowing that the boy and his dad were not Scots (without asking them), but Scotland are not playing in the World Cup, so who should the boy be supporting at this time? I wonder–Would the attacker have hit a boy wearing a Celtic shirt?
Perhaps the attack was not “racist” after all, but “loyalist” (in the sense that many fans are strongly loyal to their team of choice). For many footie fans, soccer is more than “just a game”, and there are other passions involved. Passion can be a dangerous thing.
2. In Radio Times for w/c 24 June (page 145 in our regional edition), a viewer has written in to ask:
‘The BBC TV’s World Cup theme seems to be the old hymn Thine Be the Glory. Am I right? Why on earth was that chosen?’
The answer (please be patient and read it all!) was:
‘You’re half right: it’s called Sports Prepare and was adapted by the composer and conductor Carl Davis from See the Conquering Hero Comes, the chorus of Handel’s 1747 oratorio Judas Maccabaeus. Although the French lyricist Edmond Budry put words to the same melody in 1884 to create A Toi la Gloire, later translated as Thine Be the Glory, the tune has also traditionally been used in Britain to welcome home victorious armies, navies and football teams. Davis’s new version is performed by the BBC Concert Orchestra and the BBC Singers. Some Scottish viewers, though, have already objected to the choice of theme tune – on the grounds that the “conquering hero” originally celebrated in the oratorio was the Duke of Cumberland, who crushed the Jacobite army’
And that leads neatly, if lengthily, to the Butcher and his hated Apron!
[Incidentally, to end on a lighter note, I recommend the Newsround section, because it often contains snippets that don’t appear elsewhere until much later, if at all. For example, it’s a hot spot for fans of Harry Potter and J K Rowling]
I have said many times that i have never encountered anti english behaviour - well except on the sofa when we score a goal just now - but I know my children have. I think this is wrongly identified in many cases as purely racist behaviour. I was picked on at school because i sounded posh, i wore glasses, I had the wrong sort of Shoes, ( sensible and without high heels despite the rows when mum and i went shopping:roll: ) Kids were picked on because they had spots, were shy,fat had a funny name whatever - kids are cruel and will see a chink in your armour and head for it without a doubt. It isnt necessarily to do with in built racism or sexism.
See i think that the history or a place and a people is important and part of what makes us who we are. History and Heritage is something to be proud of and the The Queens Own Cameron Highlanders were probably as displeased about being changed as the Lancashire fusiliers were to become The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. National pride isnt to be sneered at - Scots should be proud of their heritage and their battle with the English for Independance. The should be proud of their industrial history - the shipyards and the engineering on the Clyde for example, their social and political history. They should celebrate their language be it Gaelic or Scots. . The should go on about the Battle of Stirling Bridge and Bannockburn - they were great victories, Andrew de Murray, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce are all great heroes. Why should Scots not be proud of them. Let English people be proud of their heroes too. Build in tolerence and understanding and we have an Inclusive Scotland where people want to live and where people can sit together and watch a footie match some cheering and some booing at England's goalswithout a fight breaking out. The incidents reported in the press have been shocking but are a MINORITY and are more shocking because of that. If we came across this every day everywhere we went we wouldnt bat an eyelid. Celebrate our differences be it English Scot Polish Black White or green with yellow spots. I dont want to be the same as everyone else its our diversity that makes us interesting and our country - and by that i mean Scotland - rich and vibrant.
but no doubt if England ever gets involved in another world war Britannia will look to the highlands to fill her army,as she has done countless times before
Tony Blair has been in power for the last 9 years. He would never have been PM if it wasn't for Scottish MPs voted in by Labour loving Scots. He himself is a scot as is the PM in waiting and many other high-ranking cabinet members. Scotland has become the elitist state within a state where the big decisions have been taken away from the majority, much like Prussia was in the 19th century. So much so that the largest state is denied a parliament of its own and is dictated to by the small elite one.
In that 9 years, British forces have seen more action in foreign lands than in any time in their history. So to cut to the chase, it is Scotland that seems to be dragging us into wars not the English.
Dave Taylor
23-Jun-06, 16:07
Squidge:
I agree with your point regarding minority. Bad as the recent attacks might have been, the Press has played its part in making much more of the matter than there probably is.
lassieinfife
23-Jun-06, 16:17
Tony Blair has been in power for the last 9 years. He would never have been PM if it wasn't for Scottish MPs voted in by Labour loving Scots. He himself is a scot as is the PM in waiting and many other high-ranking cabinet members. Scotland has become the elitist state within a state where the big decisions have been taken away from the majority, much like Prussia was in the 19th century. So much so that the largest state is denied a parliament of its own and is dictated to by the small elite one.
In that 9 years, British forces have seen more action in foreign lands than in any time in their history. So to cut to the chase, it is Scotland that seems to be dragging us into wars not the English.
Were these decisions taken by the Scottish Parliament or at Westmimster?..... besides which Tony cant decide if he is English or American lol
its neither Scotland nor England - the pair of you should know that. Whether we would like it to be so or not its the United Kingdom and the decisions were made by the Parliament of Great Britain.
if it had been a Scottish parliament or an English parliament then you could have this argument without it being a pointless one but we dont so its a complete waste of time:p
its neither Scotland nor England - the pair of you should know that. Whether we would like it to be so or not its the United Kingdom and the decisions were made by the Parliament of Great Britain. A United Kingdom it may be, but Suvvern Engerland feels very different from Scotland right now. Why do they have all these funny red & white flags all over the place? They're flying on flagpoles, they're attached to fences, they're hanging ootta folks' bedroom windows, and they're streaming from their cars. It's all very foreign to me. :confused
Aye, but remember Freuchie won the cricket..........sigh
landmarker
23-Jun-06, 21:03
Was it squidge who called English-Scotland friction 'racism' I hope not, because such a tag is rubbish. We are the same race as I have said before. Perhaps different ethnicities, certainly different naitonalities. That said we're the same race.
Gleeber - where does a 'gleeber' come from? I see you were picked on as a child and it could explain a lot. I am not 'English' to the core....I honestly do not think so. I consider meself English, because it's undeniable, but being 'British' gives me some claim on a Scottish heritage - me great great grannie and grandad were 'Renwick & Bruce' They headed south during the latter days of the industrial revolution looking for work I'd guess.
I tried to give Nello some good feedback but the system wouldn't let me. I apologise for using the term 'our parliament' I have never resented Scots at Westminster, but now we must look at issues where they vote on matters wholly concerning England. Care for the elderly, tuition fees etc...it seems they are happy to rob us of these whilst supporting them north of the border.
Apparently the Scot gets £1,500 more spending per head from central government than the average 'Englander' This is fair enough since oil revenue must provide a lot of that. I am a citizen of Britain, and am thoroughly pleased to be so. I shall wear a subtle English top in Sutherland next week as I watch the quarter finals. I don't expect anything other than banter & I'm confident I shall hold my own. The team??? that's a different thing altogether.
Gleeber - where does a 'gleeber' come from? I see you were picked on as a child and it could explain a lot. I am not 'English' to the core....I honestly do not think so. I consider meself English, because it's undeniable, but being 'British' gives me some claim on a Scottish heritage - me great great grannie and grandad were 'Renwick & Bruce' They headed south during the latter days of the industrial revolution looking for work I'd guess.
There's a small council estate built on the outskirts of Thurso in the early 30s. It was built on church land and a glebe is part of the parish of a church. People who were born there are called gleebers or even Glebers :D
I wasnt so much picked on as a kid, but rather I picked on myself. That's one of the consequences of prejudice. The person being prejudiced believes the sneers of the prejudicer, and if there is no one there to explain that the problem really lies with the prejudicer, then the one who is prejudiced believes there is something wrong with them. Millions of people grow up with hangups about themselves. It's a human plague. Freud named it the neurosis. Anyone who has no hangups about themselves are very fortunate.
It's good that you can identify yourself as anything you want and I suspect you may be strong enough to defend your position. There are millions who would take an opposing view, although I'm with you on this one. I also defend the right of anyone born in this country to lay claim to its protection of equal rights for all.
Was it squidge who called English-Scotland friction 'racism'
No - it wasnt me
landmarker
24-Jun-06, 16:05
I have said many times that i have never encountered anti english behaviour - well except on the sofa when we score a goal just now - but I know my children have. I think this is wrongly identified in many cases as purely racist behaviour.
Not 'purely racist' behaviour then? Sorry, but by implication I thought you meant it was partly racist behaviour. It seems like me, you realise it isn't.
Fair doos. Though I don't want to put words into your mouth.
l
Was it squidge who called English-Scotland friction 'racism' I hope not, because such a tag is rubbish. We are the same race as I have said before. Perhaps different ethnicities, certainly different naitonalities. That said we're the same race.
What's the difference between racism and English-Scottish friction? I know you have partly explained in intellectual terms, but what about the deed? The effect of the discrimination on the victim? Do they not come from the same source? By seperating them are we not making excuses for one over the other?
A black person, discriminated because of their colour, is no more or no less discriminated against than an English person, because of their nationality.
I wonder if a black English person being discriminated in Scotland could tell the difference?
landmarker
24-Jun-06, 19:48
What's the difference between racism and English-Scottish friction? I know you have partly explained in intellectual terms, but what about the deed? The effect of the discrimination on the victim? Do they not come from the same source? By seperating them are we not making excuses for one over the other?
A black person, discriminated because of their colour, is no more or no less discriminated against than an English person, because of their nationality.
I wonder if a black English person being discriminated in Scotland could tell the difference?
This is no reason to ascribe a spurious description to whatever is going on. Like it or not gleeber you and I are the same race. We have enough pain and mither about racism, driven by an entire industry which has sprung up via Brits who are so full of self loathing and guilt they bend over backwards to accommodate anyone. So, this IS NOT anything remotely racist. More a temporary demonstration of ancient enmities between close cousins.
The deed might appear the same, but the effect vastly different. I'd wager the average Englishman feels in no way blighted or reduced by any Scottish vitriol, on the contrary I'd think mettle might be stiffened and attitudes hardened. Vice versa of course, because the Scots are no shrinking violets and full of national verve, passion and confidence. Races, put down by those who have always enjoyed economic & political superiority over them could recoil in the face of further ridicule/discrimination/antagonism.
So, please do not mistake anglo-scots rancour as 'racist' because it so clearly isn't.
I hope the current climate it is temporary. There are rumblings down here. A YouGov poll in the Telegraph today suggests 55% of English people want the WEst Lothian question answered. No input into English affairs by Scottish M.P.'s As much as I want to preserve cross border harmony I cannot see much wrong with that proposal.
Okay - I'm off to watch the gringos play the gauchos. Twenty two dusky dagos conspiring to show us pallid, freckle faced guilt ridden lummoxes how to play football.
Enjoy your saturday evening.
More a temporary demonstration of ancient enmities between close cousins.
Temporary? :D
Races, put down by those who have always enjoyed economic & political superiority over them could recoil in the face of further ridicule/discrimination/antagonism.
Are you saying that upwards of 500 English MPs don't have economic and political superiority over upwards of 50 Scots ones, and, by extension, the English ethnic group over the Scots?
I hope the current climate it is temporary. There are rumblings down here. A YouGov poll in the Telegraph today suggests 55% of English people want the WEst Lothian question answered. No input into English affairs by Scottish M.P.'s As much as I want to preserve cross border harmony I cannot see much wrong with that proposal.
So have an English Parliament, landmarker....then you will be upsides with all the rest of the UK........simple!
Of course, you could always confirm what so many of us already think.............that the UK Parliament has only ever been the English one with the other nations added....but basically an English Parliament, run by the English for the English.
Some of us Scots have been complaining for years because English MPs have inflicted reams of unwanted and very unwelcome legislation on Scotland. It is darn irritating that it is only three hundred years on, now that the English perceive themselves to be in the same boat, (temporarily, btw, as long as there is a Nu-labour Government)...it NOW becomes a problem which requires correction! :confused
Good Argentina/Mexico game, btw.....the English are going to have to raise their game more than a wheen if they meet either the Germans or one of the dago teams (game not yet over) if the English reach the semis..........I'm inclined to think that one of the above will get there at any rate.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Jun-06, 22:34
100 English were arrested today for aggressive and racist violence in Germany.
I think that while a lot of valid points have been raised at the end of the day we all have to live together, it is up to the individual how they react in any situation, I had the opportunity today to be the bigger man when called a "Porridge Gobbling Cave Dweller" by an English lad on the rig .........
........ I didnt take it and made sure he goes home on the Last Flight the day he goes off !!
100 English were arrested today for aggressive and racist violence in Germany.
And? Your point is? What has this got to do with the thread?
Big deal - As mentioned earlier all countries have to put up with these idiots. Out of around 80,000 English supporters who are over there it's hardly the majority is it? Just the English got arrested then? No Germans? Poles? Dutch?
Football fans fighting? Nothing new there. Hardly 7 year olds huh?
landmarker
24-Jun-06, 23:35
100 English were arrested today for aggressive and racist violence in Germany.
Here we go again.
Was the second world war racist? What the heck are you talking about?
I saw the report on the news and there were no black or brown, Chinese, Inuit,South American Indian people anywhere in sight. Just northern Europeans ie - all the same race.
Drink played its part and so did the Germans. I wonder how many of them were arrested. Let us hope this is nipped in the bud but it has absolutely nothing to do with racism. Narrow minded nationalism perhaps and ethnic differences stemming from a bloody history of fairly recent conflict, although some brutish ENglish drunkards will fight with anybody, if theres no-one handy they will fight amongst themselves.
Oddquine: The Westminster parliament has seen more than a proportionate share of Scots in roles of key influence for almost as long as I can remember.Given that you call it the 'English parliament for the English' and the fact that the English population is about ten times that of Scotland isn't it obvious it will dominate a tad. The measure of devolution now enjoyed by Scotland has been enough to rock the boat a little and it seems to me that Scots are getting a better deal in terms of benefitting from certain social policies which are largely financed by English money*. Not many people had given this much thought down here, including me, it was only the business of McConnell s anti-English stance that seemed to kick things off - no pun intended. I don't begrudge Scotland whatever the treasury decides to hand over but it's a bit rich when Scottish M.P.'s legislate over me and deny me what they'd grant to their own constituents.
*Oil revenues notwithstanding and the true ownership of such revenues and the capability of realising them is arguable.
Dave Taylor
24-Jun-06, 23:54
Seems to be some interest in how the "R" word first appeared in this thread. I did a word search and found the following:
Page 1: Jaws, Poshiepoo and JimH all used "race"
Page 2: Dave Taylor, squidge and compo used "racist"
compo used "racism"
Dave Taylor uased "racial"
By Page 3, it kind of turned into a free-for-all.
If I've caused any offence, then I apologise. Can anyone suggest an alternative word?
:confused
Oddquine: The Westminster parliament has seen more than a proportionate share of Scots in roles of key influence for almost as long as I can remember.
But why not, as long as it is a UK Parliament...or are we not intended to participate at all? The Party Leader, and the PM if a Party comes to power, is voted for by all members.....from all parts of the country......isn't he?
On occasion, the MPs in Westminster from Scottish constituencies may well just swing a vote.....but there has to be a large proportion of English MPs voting for it as well
Given that you call it the 'English parliament for the English' and the fact that the English population is about ten times that of Scotland isn't it obvious it will dominate a tad.
Sure it is.......but the domination of the Scots by the English has never bothered you before.......so why rail about the odd occasion when the Scots are in a position to give you some of your own back? (and I don't mean you personally, btw.)
The measure of devolution now enjoyed by Scotland has been enough to rock the boat a little and it seems to me that Scots are getting a better deal in terms of benefitting from certain social policies which are largely financed by English money*.
I don't intend to get into the financing of Scotland, except to say that statistics as to the level of English input are open to interpretation by anyone who wants to study them.
And while I'm not that keen on a lot of the nannying being done by the Scottish Parliament, it is comforting to know that at least we will never have a Tory administration in Scotland again.
Not many people had given this much thought down here, including me, it was only the business of McConnell s anti-English stance that seemed to kick things off - no pun intended.
Why was it an anti-English stance? Like all politicians he was pandering to his electorate......Joke McConnell is as much of a Unionist as you are. We all know it was said for effect! Now if Blair had said the same thing (being a Scot), I could understand you getting offended, as he is PM of the UK.and has something to do with England!
I don't begrudge Scotland whatever the treasury decides to hand over but it's a bit rich when Scottish M.P.'s legislate over me and deny me what they'd grant to their own constituents.
But they don't......... do they? They have no more say as to what happens in Scotland than English MPs do...do they? For all we know..they would maybe like to see the same laws up here.......but there is absolutely nothing they can do to influence the Scottish Parliament either.............so it is a fallacy to say they deny you anything they grant to their own constituents......because they grant nothing within the devolved powers TO their constituents
*Oil revenues notwithstanding and the true ownership of such revenues and the capability of realising them is arguable.
Ownership is decided by International Law. And if there is oil in get-atable amounts enough to make it worth while.......there will always be someone who wants it.............though the way the oil has been hammered to prop up the UK economy, I guess there can't be a lot of years worth left. :roll:
Seems to be some interest in how the "R" word first appeared in this thread. I did a word search and found the following:
Page 1: Jaws, Poshiepoo and JimH all used "race"
Page 2: Dave Taylor, squidge and compo used "racist"
compo used "racism"
Dave Taylor uased "racial"
By Page 3, it kind of turned into a free-for-all.
If I've caused any offence, then I apologise. Can anyone suggest an alternative word?
:confused
Why would a different word be needed?
Racism is any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life...........according to the UN.......... and Article 21 of the EU charter prohibits discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, color, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality.
So racism is as good a word as any.
Here we go again.
Was the second world war racist? What the heck are you talking about?
I saw the report on the news and there were no black or brown, Chinese, Inuit,South American Indian people anywhere in sight. Just northern Europeans ie - all the same race.
Drink played its part and so did the Germans. I wonder how many of them were arrested. Let us hope this is nipped in the bud but it has absolutely nothing to do with racism. Narrow minded nationalism perhaps and ethnic differences stemming from a bloody history of fairly recent conflict, although some brutish ENglish drunkards will fight with anybody, if theres no-one handy they will fight amongst themselves.
Oddquine: The Westminster parliament has seen more than a proportionate share of Scots in roles of key influence for almost as long as I can remember.Given that you call it the 'English parliament for the English' and the fact that the English population is about ten times that of Scotland isn't it obvious it will dominate a tad. The measure of devolution now enjoyed by Scotland has been enough to rock the boat a little and it seems to me that Scots are getting a better deal in terms of benefitting from certain social policies which are largely financed by English money*. Not many people had given this much thought down here, including me, it was only the business of McConnell s anti-English stance that seemed to kick things off - no pun intended. I don't begrudge Scotland whatever the treasury decides to hand over but it's a bit rich when Scottish M.P.'s legislate over me and deny me what they'd grant to their own constituents.
*Oil revenues notwithstanding and the true ownership of such revenues and the capability of realising them is arguable.
Funny how when the Parliament at Westminster was deciding Policies for the UK with lets face it an English majority that seemed to be OK south of the border .. when said Parliament intorduced the Poll Tax which taxed one part of the UK more than the rest for two years who voted it in ?? .. the majority of English MPs. That situation still exsists today or are you trying to suggest that the 50 odd Scottish MP's at Westminster somehow decide the Policies decided there alone ??
"The measure of devolution enjoyed by Scotland has been enough to rock the boat a little" .. whats the matter .. are you upset that England doesnt have total control over what happens in Scotland anymore .. ah diddums.
"Mconnels anti English Stance" .. because he said he would support teams playing against England ?? .. how is Mconnell anti English in that respect ?? .. I think you will find most scots support two teams .. Scotland and whoever plays England .. and you wonder why Scots perceive the English as Arrogant.
"Given that you call it the English Parliament for the English" .. I wouldnt ... I would call it an English led Parliament that decides decides policies for the UK .. Including the amount of money Scotland gets .. we dont have control of our own finances .. and the majority of MP's there are English.
"I dont bedgrudge Scotland whatever the treasury decides to hand over" .. Scots pay tax .. in fact I pay a lot of tax as I work offshore .. I pay more than most people and I get more than a bit upset when people try to make out that we somehow get hand outs from the treasury .. are you trying to suggest that Scotland somehow doesnt pay its way ?? .. how much money is made from Scottish Whisky ?? .. name me another English product that makes as much for the treasury.
One other point ..
I lived in Germany for three years while serving in the Forces and have heard English Lads singing "Two World Wars and One World Cup" in German bars .. I went out with a German girl and was made very welcome by her and her family and when I met friends of theirs I made sure they knew I was Scottish and I had no problems there .. not an opinion but a fact .. or did you not see the England Fans waving Inflatable Spitfires and singing the Dads Army theme at German supporters ?? .. moronic. The Scots Welsh and Irish also fought in World War II as well .. NOT JUST THE ENGLISH .. something the English seem to forget .. so why dont we seem to have the same attitude to the Germans ?? Your whole tone in your posts is of a person spitting the dummy because Mconnell wont support England and trying to balance the chip on each shoulder at the same time. And here is another painful fact in that you say drink played its part in tonights scenes and you are right .. but the Tartan Army drink more than most and dont seem to end up fighting and alienating people .. in fact they seem to do the opposite .. something to think about.
About the only thing I Think you and I would agree on is that Scottish MP's at Westminster should not be allowed to vote on purely English Issues .. I would back that 100%.
Rant Over.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
25-Jun-06, 02:17
The Sun did a classic experiment.A Scot wearing an England top wandering up Princes Street in Edinburgh,Argyle Street in Glasgow....all there was....harmless banter,what I honestly expected.
When it comes to football,thats what it is all about.If its Geoff Hurst scoring the 4th goal(they think its all over).Or oor Jim Baxter doing his keepey ups against the World Cup winners.Its all to do wi' the World Cup and once its all done,we'll all go back to watching Big Brother!!!:lol: :lol:
Is that really the extent of Scots ambition, to hope that somebody, anybody, can beat England at Football?
What a disgrace that Scotland has sunk so far. There was a time when Scotland produced players and teams equal to any England could field.
Scots could look forward to meeting and beating England at Football themselves and not having to resort to searching for some proxy to do it for them.
What a disgraceful state of affairs when the once Proud Scots are reduced to pleading that somebody does the winning for them! ;)
The Sun did a classic experiment.A Scot wearing an England top wandering up Princes Street in Edinburgh,Argyle Street in Glasgow....all there was....harmless banter,what I honestly expected.
When it comes to football,thats what it is all about.If its Geoff Hurst scoring the 4th goal(they think its all over).Or oor Jim Baxter doing his keepey ups against the World Cup winners.Its all to do wi' the World Cup and once its all done,we'll all go back to watching Big Brother!!!:lol: :lol:
Couldnt have said it better myself.
Last post for me on this thread.
Its all to do wi' the World Cup and once its all done,we'll all go back to watching Big Brother!!!:lol: :lol:Big Brother! For Heaven's sake, bring back the Test Card. Waiting for the girl to blink was more exciting!
The only good thing about it is that it is the perfect cure for insomnia.
Ach its only a game, and I'm going to enjoy it today - not sure if England will manage to win (but I hope they do).......here is a wee something to get you in the mood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8CPNjPYuP4
or if you prefer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbqbhSs8Dpo&search=three%20lions
and just for the sake of balance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lV4aN9QgI&search=john%20gordon%20sinclair
connieb19
25-Jun-06, 09:51
Vindaloo....It must be the most annoying song ever!![mad]
landmarker
25-Jun-06, 14:40
Funny how when the Parliament at Westminster was deciding Policies for the UK with lets face it an English majority that seemed to be OK south of the border .. when said Parliament intorduced the Poll Tax which taxed one part of the UK more than the rest for two years who voted it in ?? .. the majority of English MPs. That situation still exsists today or are you trying to suggest that the 50 odd Scottish MP's at Westminster somehow decide the Policies decided there alone ??
"The measure of devolution enjoyed by Scotland has been enough to rock the boat a little" .. whats the matter .. are you upset that England doesnt have total control over what happens in Scotland anymore .. ah diddums.
NO. I DO NOT THINK ENGLAND SHOULD HAVE TOTAL CONTROL OF WHAT GOES ON IN SCOTLAND. MOST ENGLISH PEOPLE DON'T CARE ANYWAY.I DO.
"Mconnels anti English Stance" .. because he said he would support teams playing against England ?? .. how is Mconnell anti English in that respect ?? ..
ISN'T THAT ABOUT AS ANTI-ENGLISH AS ONE COULD GET? AS A SENIOR POLITICIAN HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER. HE NEEDS TO LEARN THE ART OF DIPLOMACY.
I think you will find most scots support two teams .. Scotland and whoever plays England .. and you wonder why Scots perceive the English as Arrogant.
DO THEY? WHAT? ALL OF 'EM? THATS A SWEEPING STATEMENT.
.. how much money is made from Scottish Whisky ??
PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS.
name me another English product that makes as much for the treasury.
ER......BANKING. PLUS MANY OTHERS.
One other point ..GO ON......
I lived in Germany for three years while serving in the Forces and have heard English Lads singing "Two World Wars and One World Cup" in German bars .. I went out with a German girl and was made very welcome by her and her family and when I met friends of theirs I made sure they knew I was Scottish and I had no problems there .. not an opinion but a fact .. or did you not see the England Fans waving Inflatable Spitfires and singing the Dads Army theme at German supporters ?? .. moronic. The Scots Welsh and Irish also fought in World War II as well .. NOT JUST THE ENGLISH .. something the English seem to forget .. so why dont we seem to have the same attitude to the Germans ??
THE GERMANS NEEDTO ACCEPT THAT THE ENGLISH HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR. THEY DO NOT. THEY DO NOT HAVE A WORD FOR 'COMEDY' FOR INSTANCE. THE GERMAN SENSE OF HUMOUR REVOLVES AROUND CHARDONFREUDE - I MAY HAVE MISPELT IT BUT BASICALLY IT MEANS FINDING HUMOUR IN THE MISFORTUNES OF OTHERS. INFLATABLE SPITFIRES AND THE DAD'S ARMY THEME ARE NOT THE WORST WAYS GERMANY'S CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TWENTIETH CENTURY COULD BE DREDGED UP. I WOULD NOT TOTALLY CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOUR NOR WOULD I CONDEMN IT UTTERLY.IN 1966 IF SUCH AN INFLATABLE DEVICE HAD BEEN AVAILABLE I MAY WELL HAVE WAVED ONE MYSELF. I WAS ONLY FIFTEEN AFTER ALL.
Your whole tone in your posts is of a person spitting the dummy because Mconnell wont support England and trying to balance the chip on each shoulder at the same time. And here is another painful fact in that you say drink played its part in tonights scenes and you are right .. but the Tartan Army drink more than most and dont seem to end up fighting and alienating people .. in fact they seem to do the opposite .. something to think about.
I USED TO SPEND TOO MUCH TIME FOLLOWING FOOTBALL.AT THAT TIME SCOTTISH FANS WERE NOTORIOUS AND ON TWO OCASSIONS I GOT MIXED UP WITH DRUNKEN CELTIC SUPPORTERS AND FELT MIGHTILY UNCOMFORTABLE. SOMETHING CHANGED AND THEY GRADUALLY GOT THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND BECAME MORE BENIGN, HOLDING THEIR ALE AND ENJOYING A REPUTATION WHICH ON THE WHOLE IS NOW THOROUGHLY DESERVED. THE REPUTATION ITSELF HAS GENERATED A NEW KIND OF REPSONSIBILITY BUT PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME ALL SCOTTISH FOOTBALL FANS ARE ANGELS. tHE PROPORTION OF IDIOTS WILL BE SIMILAR TO THAT SOUTH OF THE BORDER. PEER PRESSURE AND THE 'REPUTATION' MIGHT HELP KEEP THEM IN CHECK MORE.
About the only thing I Think you and I would agree on is that Scottish MP's at Westminster should not be allowed to vote on purely English Issues .. I would back that 100%.....
GOOD. AT LEAST WE AGREE ON SOMETHING. I AM USING CAPITALS NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE A LONG WAY BUT IT'S THE EASIEST WAY I CAN FIND TO REPSOND TO YOUR VARIOUS POINTS WITHOUT A LOT OF CUTTING AND PASTING.
Rant Over.
IF YOU WATCH THE GAME THIS AFTERNOON AND ARE SUPPORTING ECUADOR THEN HAVING READ MORE ABOUT THE COUNTRY, THE ATTITUDES OF THE PEOPLE AND THE PHILOSOPHY OF THEIR PLAYER'S WIVES THEN I WON'T MIND TOO MUCH IF THEY KNOCK ENGLAND OUT. 'THOUGH I DON'T THINK THEY WILL. WE SHALL SEE.
landmarker
What i said when i used the word racist is that i didnt think that the motives of children were purely racist - ie: designed to target my kids simply because they were english and that alone made them horrible and unlikeable and hated. I think there were racist elements to the actions of the children but children fight, fall out and pick on each other for a whole range of reasons. Part of that CAN be because they hear parents and other responsible adults say things like "well, they are (english/tinks/black/pakis - take your pick)What do you expect?" and their children pick up on that and continue the prejudice. Mostly, however it is about being popular in school and once the children doing the picking on realise that the english lad will give you a smack inthe mouth if you call him and english b once more it stops, just as once they realise the fat kid or the kids with glasses or the bookish kid can stand up for themselves it stops. Its not about racism its about being popular in school, or feared or looked up to or better than someone else or whatever rather than being purely about race.
Football is the same Scots not cheering for england is about FOOTBALL. like my siser in law refusing to cheer for Man United is not about her hating mancunians - crikey she would be hard put to find one amongst the United fans :D. Robert the Bruce cheering for Ecuador is not about him Hating English people - The most important woman in his life is english for goodness sake its about Football and England are Scotlands rivals and so why would he cheer for England.
See it all makes PERFECT sense to me I cant see what yous lot are all het up about!!!!
Come on England yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy:Razz
C'mon the Faroe Isles on the 2nd September!:cool:
Vindaloo....It must be the most annoying song ever!![mad]
i love that tune been singing it in the house for the past couple of weeks.
instead of i have a dream scotsboy which is a good tune but would have loved to hear allys tartan army. not heard it in a while.
Can't find We're on the march wi Ally's Army......found this though.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isniGpUZPak&search=tartan%20army
Praetorian
25-Jun-06, 20:26
Had to watch footy on Sky as the BBC shamelessly showed every english replay and the players wives as the footy was going on. Both teams nearly scored when they did this and spoilt the game. Also saw Beckham being sick. For a true football fan what a waste thank you sky for concentrating on the football PS hope holland win tonight as the Gers fans wont have to buy a portugal top!
The Pepsi Challenge
26-Jun-06, 00:42
As someone who has lived and worked in England, the overwhelming arrogance broadcast and published on a daily basis for the last two months is quite simply stomach churning. The English media have whipped up the undiscerning, gullible and disenfranchised into a jingoistic state of tense expectation. Comments anticipating participation in the final (“Won’t meet Germany till the final” ) and the constant referencing of 1966 (like the list of battles like Mafeking, Waterloo, Culloden etc) engenders an over-inflated ego in a population and a hugely flawed perception of what is good, right and important in life. If there is any justice or fairness in life and in sport then these overpaid, overrated representatives of John Bull will be out on their self-centred backsides as soon as possible. Then the rest of the world can get on with enjoying the football.
As far as the English go you just have to love them ..
According to Landmarker (please take note) ..
If you say you wont support England it is apparently "AS ANTI ENGLISH AS YOU CAN GET" .. really ?? .. and just because youre paranoid doesnt mean they are not out to get you right ?? .. :roll:
I posted "I think you will find most scots support two teams .. Scotland and whoever plays England .. (not the word MOST here) .. Landmarkers reply ?? .. "DO THEY?? WHAT ALL OF EM ?? THATS A SWEEPING STATEMENT" .. two things to point out here .. 1 .. Read the statement before you answer .. 2 .. See Point 1.
When I pointed out that England fans were waving Inflatable Spitfires and singing the Dads Army Theme at German Supporters what was his first reply .. "THE GERMANS NEED TO REASLISE THE ENGLISH HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR" .. well i bet the winter nights just fly in with those fans because are they a riot (pun intended) or what ??
When I asked you to name an English Industry that put as much money into the UK coffers as the Scotch Whisky Industry you replied .. "ER ..BANKING. PLUS MANY OTHERS" .. cheers for that .. nothing like a comprehensive answer !! .. sorry I forgot about the world famous English Banking Industry .. what was I thinking ??
It seems to me Landmarker you have a bit of a Beef with Scots not supporting England and our First Minister saying so publicly .. well thats democracy for you .. this is a tongue in cheek post and is to be taken as such .. but I will say I have loads of English friends and having lived in England am the first to say that it is a great place to live (at least where I was) just let it go eh ?? .. The World Cup will be over for you on Saturday and we can all get back to normal !! .. :eek: .. just kidding !!
you guys all need to calm down, you are all blowing it way out of proportion. Im english and had 4 phone calls yesterday from my Scottish friends asking me to come and watch the match with them. I know they would be supporting Ecuador, Frankly i dont really care, the banter was good and it was all tongue in cheek.
Thats all it is at the end of the day, friendly banter and fun. A few thugs about but on the most part just FUN.
So chill out and enjoy the football, support whoever you want, and stop moaning at each other about your own countries misfortunes.
Pepsi wrote:
As someone who has lived and worked in England, the overwhelming arrogance broadcast and published on a daily basis for the last two months is quite simply stomach churning. The English media have whipped up the undiscerning, gullible and disenfranchised into a jingoistic state of tense expectation. Comments anticipating participation in the final (“Won’t meet Germany till the final” ) and the constant referencing of 1966 (like the list of battles like Mafeking, Waterloo, Culloden etc) engenders an over-inflated ego in a population and a hugely flawed perception of what is good, right and important in life. If there is any justice or fairness in life and in sport then these overpaid, overrated representatives of John Bull will be out on their self-centred backsides as soon as possible. Then the rest of the world can get on with enjoying the football.
You are either too young to remmeber Argentina (when we won the World Cup before a ball was kicked) or choose to forget it. Our media is on a par with the rest of the UK.......ever been to a Scotland game Pepsi? Ever seen a Remember Bannockburn flag?
I want England to win it - just so as it gives us Jocks something to complain about........we seem to have given up on making anything of ourselves so lets just settle for slagging the English - the future ain't bright in McConnells Scotland.
Can't find We're on the march wi Ally's Army......found this though.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isniGpUZPak&search=tartan%20army
very funny one. really liked it cheers for the link.
As someone who has lived and worked in England, the overwhelming arrogance broadcast and published on a daily basis for the last two months is quite simply stomach churning. The English media have whipped up the undiscerning, gullible and disenfranchised into a jingoistic state of tense expectation. Comments anticipating participation in the final (“Won’t meet Germany till the final” ) and the constant referencing of 1966 (like the list of battles like Mafeking, Waterloo, Culloden etc) engenders an over-inflated ego in a population and a hugely flawed perception of what is good, right and important in life. If there is any justice or fairness in life and in sport then these overpaid, overrated representatives of John Bull will be out on their self-centred backsides as soon as possible. Then the rest of the world can get on with enjoying the football.
It sounds like you are taking it far too seriously and to heart. Liven up, what is wrong with the English media being biased when it comes to their own football team? Do you think any other broadcaster is any different? I was in Argentina during the aftermath of their 1978 victory and they are just the same.
I can understand Scottish people's frustration with the English media. It would not be so bad if they stuck to the sport slots and perhaps a brief mention on the news headlines. However, the obsession with the football team spreads itself so far across the board that you cannot even escape the Engerlund shirts on the porn channels. Well, so I've been informed ;o)
Having said all that, as has been pointed out already, we Scots are little better when it comes to dragging up past glories and for assuming superiority over supposed lesser nations.
In the build up to the 1978 World Cup all we heard about was how old the Peruvian players were. A team of guys who were past it and who would be no match for Scotland. The "Big Yin" cartoon strip in the Sunday Mail had graffiti on the walls in the background which proclaimed "Cubillas is a pensioner" and "Chumpitaz is a Bam", referring to the Peruvian players Teofilio Cubillas and Hector Chumpitaz. Of course this was only "Banter" for the troops. History tells us who had the last laugh on that one and, incidentally, Cubillas scored 10 World Cup goals in his career. Not bad for meals-on-wheels candidate.
Personally , I hope England don't win it, simply because they have been mince and have provided zero entertainment. The last 10 minutes against an Ecuador team devoid of urgency or desire was a masterclass in time-wasting, totally condoned by the BBC pundits who would have been climbing the walls had the roles been reversed. Please let a team of entertainers prevail for the sake of the game as a spectacle to enjoy.
Got to agree Scorrie, England have not played well at all and with the notable exception of Joe Cole (every now and then) been totally devoid of entertainment. However what is entertainment to one is torture to another. I seemed to be the only one at my work today who actually enjoyed the Holland/Portugal match.
Remember vividly the McCormick Big Yin cartoon strip, Lord Lucan gave him plenty mileage.
Pepsi wrote:
You are either too young to remmeber Argentina (when we won the World Cup before a ball was kicked) or choose to forget it. Our media is on a par with the rest of the UK.......ever been to a Scotland game Pepsi? Ever seen a Remember Bannockburn flag?
I want England to win it - just so as it gives us Jocks something to complain about........we seem to have given up on making anything of ourselves so lets just settle for slagging the English - the future ain't bright in McConnells Scotland.Ally's Tartan Army. When they went to the World Cup in Argentina, if I remember correctly, they gat fairly equal coverage with England. I certainly remember them being there and that when they were knocked out they were the only unbeaten side and were unlucky not to make the knock-out stage. I certainly have more recollection of them than I do of England in those finals because of their skills and entertainment value.
What a change since then. At that time Scotland had Pride with a capital "P", now it's all about moaning about how badly done to Scotland is. It's time Scots did something about pulling themselves up instead of expecting somebody else to do it for them.
Scotland has had a Devolved Parliament for some years now and what, exactly, has it done to pull Scotland out of the doldrums? As far as I can see, very little apart from fiddle with petty little things that are, on the whole, irrelevant to the Countries well being.
Yes, I’m an Englishman having a moan, but it’s only because I strongly believe Scotland not only deserves better but is well capable of doing better and has no reason why it should not be doing so.. The Scots I learned about, even as a schoolboy in England, was of people with vision, enthusiasm and innovation who were looking to the future.
What happened? Where are these people now? I can’t believe that they have ceased to exist so the only conclusion I can arrive at is that they are held back and discouraged by the overwhelming cries of the “Doom-mongers” who make Private Frazer look like and optimist.
It’s time for Scotland to regain it’s standing as a Proud Nation full of vision, energy and enthusiasm instead of snivelling like a little lost child.
Get off your knees, stand up tall and be what you should be, a Nation which believes in itself and has a vision of the future. Concentrate on what can be instead of spending all your time fretting about what has been,. You can’t change the past, but you can create a better future so just get up and do it!
JAWS, you need to go check your history of the '78 World Cup. I think you're confusing '78 with '74. Scotland's "good one" was '74 (unbeaten but eliminated on goal difference). The hyped-up one was '78 (lost one, drew one, won one, and again eliminated on goal difference.) England received no coverage in either World Cup because "they didnae qualify".
landmarker
26-Jun-06, 16:39
When I asked you to name an English Industry that put as much money into the UK coffers as the Scotch Whisky Industry you replied .. "ER ..BANKING. PLUS MANY OTHERS" .. cheers for that .. nothing like a comprehensive answer !! .. sorry I forgot about the world famous English Banking Industry .. what was I thinking ??
gimme a break. How much time do you think I have to waste responding to diatribes like yours.
You do not consider the 'Banking' industry in Britain to be world famous?
Roll on saturday, for more reasons than one. I have said before on here I do not care who Scots support. As a racist myself I can hardly criticise nationalism or any form of discrimination can I? I have found the level of anti-English sentiment revealing though, if not totally surprising. Like any combative curmudgeon when the brickbats start to fly I'll defend my corner. Sometimes just for the sake of an argument. I thought you'd have realised that by now.
Ally's Tartan Army. When they went to the World Cup in Argentina, if I remember correctly, they gat fairly equal coverage with England. I certainly remember them being there and that when they were knocked out they were the only unbeaten side and were unlucky not to make the knock-out stage. I certainly have more recollection of them than I do of England in those finals because of their skills and entertainment value.
You are probably thinking of the 74 World Cup where Scotland defeated Zaire 2-0 and then drew 0-0 with the most mingin side in Brazilian history. Interestingly, Scotland's team that day was composed of 4 Leeds United players, 3 Man Utd players, 3 Celtic players and the Lone Ranger Sandy Jardine. Wonder what odds you could get on that these days?
Scotland were eliminated after a 1-1 draw with Yugoslavia, Billy Bremner missing a sitter at the death, and Brazil's 3-0 win over Zaire put us out as Yugoslavia had already pumped them 9-0
I recently watched the final that year (74) again - what a game.
A further point I recall on England failing to qualify for World Cups was the 1994 tournament. There were special footballs created with all the qualified teams on them. I think it was for Coca-Cola. It was assumed England were certain qualifiers and the footballs were produced with England on them and Norway absent!!
These had to be withdrawn after England were defeated 2-0 in Norway. I think my son has one of the error footballs hidden away somewhere. Must get it up on eBay one day!!
gimme a break. How much time do you think I have to waste responding to diatribes like yours.
You do not consider the 'Banking' industry in Britain to be world famous?
Roll on saturday, for more reasons than one. I have said before on here I do not care who Scots support. As a racist myself I can hardly criticise nationalism or any form of discrimination can I? I have found the level of anti-English sentiment revealing though, if not totally surprising. Like any combative curmudgeon when the brickbats start to fly I'll defend my corner. Sometimes just for the sake of an argument. I thought you'd have realised that by now.
Cop Out my friend ...
So its the BRITISH Banking Industry now ?? .. I asked you what ENGLISH Industries put as much money into treasury coffers as the Scottish Whisky Industry first you dont answer the point and then you change your answer to suit yourself. And I dont consider my reply to your point a "Diatribe" .. I merely responded to the points you made .. indeed by saying you dont care who Scots support and saying when the brickbats start flying you will defend your corner etc you have kinda missed the point .. YOU STARTED THE THREAD .. so if you really dont care then why start the thread ?? .. You claim not to care who we support but call our First Minister anti English when he wont support you .. MAKE YOUR MIND UP .. or look up hypocritical in the dictionary.
My last post was just a tongue in cheek poke at your blatant attempt to dodge the points I made in response to your post .. I now realise it is unfair to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
If England do win the World Cup fair play to them .. but I reserve the right to not support them without being labelled anti English .. I certainly do not consider an Englishman who doesnt support Scotland anti Scottish .. last word on this now boring topic.
landmarker
26-Jun-06, 19:05
Cop Out my friend ...
So its the BRITISH Banking Industry now ?? .. I asked you what ENGLISH Industries put as much money into treasury coffers as the Scottish Whisky Industry first you dont answer the point and then you change your answer to suit yourself. And I dont consider my reply to your point a "Diatribe" .. I merely responded to the points you made .. indeed by saying you dont care who Scots support and saying when the brickbats start flying you will defend your corner etc you have kinda missed the point .. YOU STARTED THE THREAD .. so if you really dont care then why start the thread ?? .. You claim not to care who we support but call our First Minister anti English when he wont support you .. MAKE YOUR MIND UP .. or look up hypocritical in the dictionary.
My last post was just a tongue in cheek poke at your blatant attempt to dodge the points I made in response to your post .. I now realise it is unfair to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
If England do win the World Cup fair play to them .. but I reserve the right to not support them without being labelled anti English .. I certainly do not consider an Englishman who doesnt support Scotland anti Scottish .. last word on this now boring topic.
you plainly have a low boredom threshold. The British banking industry is iof course centred upon London.Other industries which earn much more for the treasury than Scottish Whiskey include Aircraft/Automotives/North Sea Oil.
I started this thread to demonstrate that this was going beyond football, and to discuss the fact that there is a bandwagon building south of the border. The thread title is 'anti-scottish feeling in England' you chump so was hardly started on the premise of who the first minister supports. An eye for detail required here Nello.
I hope you're as good as your (last) word because although my own boredom threshold is infinitely higher than yours I find your particular style rather yawn inducing.
It’s time for Scotland to regain it’s standing as a Proud Nation full of vision, energy and enthusiasm instead of snivelling like a little lost child.
Get off your knees, stand up tall and be what you should be, a Nation which believes in itself and has a vision of the future. Concentrate on what can be instead of spending all your time fretting about what has been,. You can’t change the past, but you can create a better future so just get up and do it!
Some of us want to, Jaws....that's why we keep working for independence! :roll:
England werent there in 78 JawsI wondered why I couldn't remember them. You see what we English are like, I remembered Scotland being there but I hadn't even notice the lack of an England Team.
Oops, perhaps I shouldn't admit that" [lol]
Some of us want to, Jaws....that's why we keep working for independence! :roll:That's exactly what I mean. Why do you have to wait for independence? Look at all the inventions and things created in Scotland in the last couple of Centuries, and you are more Independent now that you were then.
Independence will not be a magic cure all and that is not a comment on if it should happen or not.
It’s time to stop looking for excuses and it’s time to stop waiting for something to happen.
The only way things will happen is when people in Scotland make them happen. Hoping that something will turn up ain’t working and ain’t going to work.
It’s time that lot in Holyrood stopped doing their Nero impression and got on with doing some of the things that Scotland really needs doing. They should be concentrating on getting more jobs for Scotland and I don’t mean the “Here Today, Gone Tomorrow” Merchants. They should be encouraging Scottish Business and creating home grown employment.
They should be looking for ways to stop Scots having to leave to find well paid jobs.
They should be working hard to get the economy moving.
Yet what do they spend their time fretting about? Have I had four veg today or five and other such nonsense.
The job of Governments is to Govern. There are people who are far better qualified than them who are employed to keep me healthy and to deal with the other matters they have been playing around with.
Of course, whilst they are playing at looking busy making a lot of noise about the trivia they can leave the difficult problems which they should be dealing with in the “To Hard To Do Tray” instead of earning their keep by dealing with them.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that there are a large number of Scots who are totally frustrated by seeing the lack of progress in where Scotland is going.
It’s time the “Powers That Be” had their backsides kicked (that’s if you can prise them out of their cosy little chairs) and told to get on with it because that's what they are there for.
George Brims
27-Jun-06, 00:38
You know Landmarker is really becoming quite tiresome. It's bad enough he blathers on about being a racist, as if that was like preferring tea to coffee. Time was people were too polite to say they were racists in public,
But now he is insulting our sacred national beverage - it's Scotch Whisky, not "Scottish Whiskey".
landmarker
27-Jun-06, 16:52
Time was people were too polite to say they were racists in public,
Yes, they will be among the peole to whom Nello was referring when he/she asked me to look up the word 'hypocrite' .
landmarker
27-Jun-06, 17:11
You know Landmarker is really becoming quite tiresome. It's bad enough he blathers on about being a racist, as if that was like preferring tea to coffee........
.......But now he is insulting our sacred national beverage - it's Scotch Whisky, not "Scottish Whiskey".
Sorry I slipped an 'e' in there George - may I call you George?
Tea or Coffee? I take the latter to work to sustain me through the day, yet drink only tea at home. I can't really see the relevance in relation to confessing some 'racist' tendencies' There are degrees of 'racist' aren't there? From 'tiresome' to downright poisonous. Some are foul and spout venom. My own reservations are comparatively moderate. I'd brew up for anyone here, even coffee. Black or white?
I actually bought a Cornish Pasty from a black chap yesterday and it was splendid. So was he, he let me off nine pence when I pleaded poverty. We even shared a joke about my financial embarassment.
Industrious immigrants , especially understanding purveyors of pastry are just what we need, I wouldn't want them to dominate my High Street entirely though, or the snack van trade.
Know what I mean, George?
Dreadnought
20-Aug-06, 22:52
Firstly let me apologise for resurrecting an old thread. Secondly I also apologise for the long post.
Ok, a lot has been said here, about football and ppolitics. The West Lothian question is a fair one, there is no good reason for Scots MPs to be able to vote on purely English matters when their English counterparts are not permitted to vote on purely Scots matters.
I don't believe there is any 'anti-Scots' backlash in England. There is a lot of disatisfaction at the British government's refusal to give us our own Parliament, when they had no problem giving National Assemblies to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They want to break England up piecemeal into regions. People in the north have already voted no to the imposition of a 'regional assembly' on them. But guess what? True to his slimeball self, Tony Blair has instituted those regional assemblies anyway, without asking us. So yes, there is a hell of a lot of resentment in England, but it is not directed at Scotland.
To give you an idea of how many feel, here is one of my favourite poems. It expresses it far better than I could.
The Secret People
Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget,
For we are the people of England, that never has spoken yet.
There is many a fat farmer that drinks less cheerfully,
There is many a free French peasant who is richer and sadder than we.
There are no folk in the whole world so helpless or so wise.
There is hunger in our bellies, there is laughter in our eyes;
You laugh at us and love us, both mugs and eyes are wet:
Only you do not know us. For we have not spoken yet.
The fine French kings came over in a flutter of flags and dames.
We liked their smiles and battles, but we never could say their names.
The blood ran red to Bosworth and the high French lords went down;
There was naught but a naked people under a naked crown.
And the eyes of the King's Servants turned terribly every way,
And the gold of the King's Servants rose higher every day.
They burnt the homes of the shaven men, that had been quaint and kind,
Till there was no bed in a monk's house, nor food that man could find.
The inns of God where no man paid, that were the wall of the weak,
The King's Servants ate them all. And still we did not speak.
And the face of the King's Servants grew greater than the King:
He tricked them, and they trapped him, and stood round him in a ring.
The new grave lords closed round him, that had eaten the abbey's fruits,
And the men of the new religion, with their Bibles in their boots,
We saw their shoulders moving, to menace or discuss,
And some were pure and some were vile; but none took heed of us.
We saw the King as they killed him, and his face was proud and pale
;And a few men talked of freedom, while England talked of ale.
A war that we understood not came over the world and woke
Americans, Frenchmen, Irish; but we knew not the things they spoke.
They talked about rights and nature and peace and the people's reign:
And the squires, our masters, bade us fight; and never scorned us again.
Weak if we be for ever, could none condemn us then;
Men called us serfs and drudges; men knew that we were men.
In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains,
We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains,
We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not
The strange fierce face of the Frenchman who knew for what he fought,
And the man who seemed to be more than man we strained against and broke;
And we broke our own rights with him. And still we never spoke.
Our path of glory ended; we never heard guns again.
But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain.
He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
Come back in shining shapes at last to spoil his last carouse:
We only know the last sad squires ride slowly towards the sea,
And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.
They have given us into the hands of the new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evenings; and they know no songs.
We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet,
Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.
It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.
G.K. CHESTERTON
Like an innocent man who wrongfully goes into prison and learns to be a crook, the only close times that I've been anywhere near to being anti-Scottish has been since I moved here and only that was during the World Cup in response to daft anti-English stuff, well, mostly. Until I lived in Scotland I hadn't really thought of any English-Scottish rivalry, I thought it was all by the by. Looking back, I honestly thought that all the battles won by England against Scotland were in the interests of Scotland anyway. When I considered the overwhelming number of Scots that have been on the 'English' sides over the centuries, that only served to reaffirm my previous beliefs.
Nah, I can honestly say I love Scotland and its people with their weird sense of independence. I can honestly see how my attitude could seem arrogant to some, but that is the English way no?:roll: :Razz
Naefearjustbeer
21-Aug-06, 01:08
Not sure if this has anything to do with Scottish resentment of england or not but someone said to me that If Scotland had been an independant country when they discovered north sea oil we would be as wealthy as Dubai and they felt that all our wealth was drained away over the border and accross the big oceans. I have no facts or figures to prove or disprove this but it is an idea that I have heard.
Dubai makes very little from oil;)
percy toboggan
21-Aug-06, 17:04
Like the outspoken, yet much missed originator of this thread I also love Scotland , I love the people slightly less but that's just me. People everywhere have a habit of getting on my nerves.
The Scots manage to do it much less than others though - I bet you're really chuffed!
Long live the Union, long live friendly banter and rivalries. Long live free cross- border movement. Scotland is a truly wondrous place.
oldmarine
21-Aug-06, 19:13
I've visited both countries, England & Scotland, many times. Felt more accepted by the citizens of Scotland than those of England during my many visits. I continue to prefer visiting Scotland. That's the way it is for me. Although both are a part of Great Britain.
percy toboggan
21-Aug-06, 20:06
I've visited both countries, England & Scotland, many times. Felt more accepted by the citizens of Scotland than those of England during my many visits. I continue to prefer visiting Scotland. That's the way it is for me. Although both are a part of Great Britain.
Indeed, they are, and long may it continue. The 'Great' is now, sadly, a moot point.This is an interesting, yet tantalisingly scant post. Why did you feel the English did not accept you so readily? Where are you from? Are you visibly different or was there some other reason? Do you speak with a 'foreign' accent? I'm curious.
I had an old marina once by the way. Close but not close enough eh.
Nah, I can honestly say I love Scotland and its people with their weird sense of independence. I can honestly see how my attitude could seem arrogant to some, but that is the English way no?
Could seem?!!!!!!!!!! :eek:
It appears that is the way of some English unfortunately! :roll:
With English people attacked in Scotland by and the widely reported attitude of 'anyone but England' north of the border there is, I regret, a bit of momentum growing here against the Scottish.
The world cup fervour, or lack of it, might have unforseen consequences for Gordon Brown's chances of ever taking up Prime Ministerial power.
A two page spread in the Daily Mail today re-inforced this feeling of alienation.
Written by Tim Luckhurst, a former editor of the 'Scotsman' and a resident of Glasgow for twenty odd years. He reckoned that the introduction of devolution had weakened traditional ties and loyalties on both sides of the border. He also highlighted the vast number of Scots in our Parliament, and in positions of influence, and mooted the possibility of an Englishman ever becoming Scotlands first minister. It was a very short mooting (ie no chance)The same can be said of Wales I'd imagine.
All this is very sad. I 've said it doesn't matter who one supports in any sports match but things are going beyond this now, and if we are not careful then auld enmities will become a schism, and then a chasm.
Does anyone really want this?
A long time lover of Scotland, and harbouring a desire to live there one day, I must admit my ideas have been ever so slightly jolted.
Is it an 'underdog' thing? England has never been one has it, really? Is that why so many here shout for the underdog and would embrace a Scotland victory as one akin to our own. (Olympic Curling for instance) Yet so many Scots seem to bitterly resent an English presence in Germany, let alone progress.
This is wider than the world cup, and why I have not posted under the 'banter' thread. The violence is most regrettable, and given the scurrilous nature of the red top tabloids much will be made of it. It is a dangerous development and one which must be kept in perspective on both sides of the border, otherwise we will all be the losers.
Hmm. Interesting that someone else saw the political implications of the World Cup. Being by nature highly suspicious, especialy of a certain Mr Blair who most certainly does not want ol Gordie to take his place, I wonder how much of the media hype was directed by No 10. After all the Murdoch empire is firmly behind Tony and most of the material that stirred up the Scotland ? England debate in such an unconstructive manner was owned by....You get it!
Was it squidge who called English-Scotland friction 'racism' I hope not, because such a tag is rubbish. We are the same race as I have said before. Perhaps different ethnicities, certainly different naitonalities. That said we're the same race.
Gleeber - where does a 'gleeber' come from? I see you were picked on as a child and it could explain a lot. I am not 'English' to the core....I honestly do not think so. I consider meself English, because it's undeniable, but being 'British' gives me some claim on a Scottish heritage - me great great grannie and grandad were 'Renwick & Bruce' They headed south during the latter days of the industrial revolution looking for work I'd guess.
I tried to give Nello some good feedback but the system wouldn't let me. I apologise for using the term 'our parliament' I have never resented Scots at Westminster, but now we must look at issues where they vote on matters wholly concerning England. Care for the elderly, tuition fees etc...it seems they are happy to rob us of these whilst supporting them north of the border.
Apparently the Scot gets £1,500 more spending per head from central government than the average 'Englander' This is fair enough since oil revenue must provide a lot of that. I am a citizen of Britain, and am thoroughly pleased to be so. I shall wear a subtle English top in Sutherland next week as I watch the quarter finals. I don't expect anything other than banter & I'm confident I shall hold my own. The team??? that's a different thing altogether.
The idea that Scots receive more per head from central taxation is a bit of a myth. Yes Westminister gives a bit more to some Scottish councils than to English ones. However if you look at state subsidy in other areas, e.g. defence, contracting, tax breaks for developers etc...........there is no doublt that Scots overall receive way less government money than their English counterpart.
oldmarine
27-Aug-06, 16:15
Indeed, they are, and long may it continue. The 'Great' is now, sadly, a moot point.This is an interesting, yet tantalisingly scant post. Why did you feel the English did not accept you so readily? Where are you from? Are you visibly different or was there some other reason? Do you speak with a 'foreign' accent? I'm curious.
I had an old marina once by the way. Close but not close enough eh.
I'm an American from Tucson, AZ. I spent more time in Scotland than in England while working as an engineer at the old Thurso NavComSta. I met and had many friends in Scotland and spent less time in England so didn't have the chance to meet as many. I did know a Methodist Minister in England who had exchanged pulpits with my friend in Arizona. Him and his wife were delightful people. My family and I visited them in England while we were on tour there. My preference to the Scottish people over the English is probably due to the time I spent in each place.
The idea that Scots receive more per head from central taxation is a bit of a myth. Yes Westminister gives a bit more to some Scottish councils than to English ones. However if you look at state subsidy in other areas, e.g. defence, contracting, tax breaks for developers etc...........there is no doublt that Scots overall receive way less government money than their English counterpart.
Errr, it was only about 3 months ago that there was an article in the Record discussing the extra cash from central Government that every Scot receives per head per year than the English do. There was certainly no mention that it didn't exist!
there was an article in the Record
Hardly a reliable source;)
Hardly a reliable source;)
Correct, but if it was a load a nonsense then I think even they would have pointed it out.
tiggertoo
27-Aug-06, 20:44
alot o us heelanders havny forgoten aboot oor forefaithers who hed nae choice to leave this country during the clearances forced to leave inner scotland oot tae the coastlines and allwit came wee the clearances and the biggest insult tae us heelanders is the statue o the duke o' sutherland lookin doon fae that big hill at golspie and noo we seem tae be gettin invaded by the english again swaggerin o'er scottish land, you'd get done for tresspassin if us scots walked o'er english land and ye can hardly find a shop in england that'll take a scottish pound and if the do its no withoot a growl on there faces but dinny get me rong i hae english friends but there are arrogant stuck up ones livin here that i canny stand
Errr, it was only about 3 months ago that there was an article in the Record discussing the extra cash from central Government that every Scot receives per head per year than the English do. There was certainly no mention that it didn't exist!
But that was based on selective figures, Rheghead........subsidies aren't confined to block grants, you know...........as Stompy said <quote> However if you look at state subsidy in other areas, e.g. defence, contracting, tax breaks for developers etc...........there is no doublt that Scots overall receive way less government money than their English counterpart.</quote>
Heck, I don't think there is a job in any private company in Scotland that is subsidised at the level of every job in the Arms Industry..........all 130,000 of them..and only about 3000 of them in Scotland!
Now there's one hidden subsidy for you to think about.
all 130,000 of them..and only about 3000 of them in Scotland!
Now there's one hidden subsidy for you to think about.
I am not sure about the breakdown of where all the jobs are or are not. I suspect those figures are a gross exageration, but I am prepared to eat my words if you find a breakdown to make me. There are certainly a lot of workers in Scotland that are involved in the defense industry though. Faslane, Rosythe, Vulcan, Govan to name a few. And of course there are the armed forces as well.
EDIT, I would also like to point out that defence contracts are put out to tender, therefore, cost and delivery times count for a lot in contract awards. So, I would reject that there was any lack of 'subsidy' inference to Scotland as a whole.
j4bberw0ck
28-Aug-06, 00:59
alot o us heelanders havny forgoten aboot oor forefaithers who hed nae choice to leave this country during the clearances forced to leave inner scotland oot tae the coastlines and allwit came wee the clearances and the biggest insult tae us heelanders is the statue o the duke o' sutherland lookin doon fae that big hill at golspie and noo we seem tae be gettin invaded by the english again swaggerin o'er scottish land, you'd get done for tresspassin if us scots walked o'er english land and ye can hardly find a shop in england that'll take a scottish pound and if the do its no withoot a growl on there faces but dinny get me rong i hae english friends but there are arrogant stuck up ones livin here that i canny stand
I presume this is some kind of joke? Ha. Ha. Ha.
The clearances were orchestrated by Scots, not English. Scottish notes are not legal tender, even in Scotland, although I grant you that the arrangements requiring Scottish banks to deposit cash with the Bank of England to secure notes in issue should count for more than it does.
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