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JAWS
29-May-04, 01:49
Take a look at this site and see what you think now it's nearly finished
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/holyrood/index_6.htm

It's going to be as impressive as the Sydney Opera House.

AR
31-May-04, 23:02
But a huge waste of money! (ours, the tax payers)

JAWS
01-Jun-04, 00:03
I wondered why I hadn't seen many pictures of it in view of it's importance and the fuss made over it's wonderful design.

I Know it's not finished but it will certainly be outstanding when it is.
Just asoutstanding as a huge boil on the end of somebody's nose, you won't be able to miss it.

It's only a personal opinion but here goes:-

The outside view of the Debaiting Chamber reminds me of Bart Simpson's haircut.

The MSP's offices make me think a Borg Cube has landed. "Resistance is Futile!"

There's a building behind the picture of the Tower Roofs which looks like either a mock caterpillar or scrap part of the Millenium Dome which somebody has smuggled onto the site. I've seen poli-tunnels which looked more impressive.

All I can say about the views from Salisbury Crags is that a fantastic view of some beautiful old stone buildings has been ruined by an unsightly concrete and glass mess.

The worst thing is that I suspect in twenty or so years time it will look like a mixture of delapidated tower blocks and 1960's concrete underpasses.

It looks about as inkeeping with the rest of what I remember of the centre of Edinburgh as a moustache dawbed on the Mona Lisa!

rich
01-Jun-04, 19:02
Thank you, Jaws, for showing us the full magnitude of the disaster.
It looks like corporation flats.
It is so tacky.
It looks like something left over from the Millenial celebrations.
There is only one solution.
Bllow it up!

brokencross
01-Jun-04, 20:36
Heavens above, who on earth gave the original planning permission for that monstrocity! When I was at college at Leith I stayed at the Claymore Hotel in Royal Terrace. It used to be such a lovely drive down the Royal Mile and around Arthurs Seat. An unadulterated waste of public money to satisfy the inflated egos of "alledged" public servants. When will it end, maybe one of the MSP's sitting in their private "pods" can tell you!!

simian sally
02-Jun-04, 01:31
Ahem........

I beg to differ. I drive past there often and I have been watching the scaffolding come down for some months now. It is high quality impressive. Not to everyone's taste, but high quality nonetheless.

The "mock caterpillar" is Dynamic Earth and is not part of the complex.

I think it'll be ok in 20 years because of the quality of the build, but only time will tell.............

golach
02-Jun-04, 10:03
Ahem........

I beg to differ. Not to everyone's taste, but high quality nonetheless., but only time will tell.............

Well simian sally, not bad 3 out of 4 statements and I agree with them!!!!!!
1: I beg to differ
2: Not to everyone's taste
3: But only time will tell
these I agree with
But as I live in close proximity to this abomination and see it more times than I like, how much of the £500 million has been wasted and how much did it actually cost?
So "but high quality nonetheless" I disagree with. This is Edinburgh the "Athens of the North" so who needs this concrete and glass edifice in the centre of our most world famous street? Ok it has fancy granite sticky on bits, how long will they stay on?
What was wrong with the Royal High School building, St Andrews house and the rest of Waterloo Place, that whole area could have been turned into a showpiece site at a fraction of the cost

Golach

rich
02-Jun-04, 14:34
To gauge the extent of this architectural fiasco consider this point:
Scotland can no longer afford to govern itself, or take steps to becoming a sovereigh nation because of all the capital wasted in this folly.

There's been nothing like this since the Darien Scheme.

And we could blame that on the English and the Spanish.

(The cheesiest bit of it is the free standing concrete thingies with the cut out patterns...)

simian sally
03-Jun-04, 00:46
What was wrong with the Royal High School building, St Andrews house and the rest of Waterloo Place, that whole area could have been turned into a showpiece site at a fraction of the cost

Former Royal High: proportions all wrong, too small anyways.

Old St Andrews House: horrible thirties architecture, horribly redolent of Stalin's Moscow, Hitler's Berlin and Mussolini's Roma. That's my personal opinion.

I have no time for the "modern is bad" blanket assumption when it comes to architecture. I think the parliament and the surrounding area will be superb. It ought to be too, it cost enough. ;)

Any idea what the Cockburn Association thinks?

I like the Parliament. It has connotations of the Jewish Museum in Berlin, with a touch of the Guggenheiim in NYC, but with the gravitas of the Reichstag's Dome. It beats Paris's Pompidou hands-down. Edinburgh has enough owld stuff. The new part of the courts, and the Museum of Scotland in Chambers Street may be fine traditional buildings, but not all new buildings have to be like that. Look at the Festival Theatre.

I know the Parliament area well, I used to live nearby. It used to be a dump. Now look at it. New flats, new hotels, new eateries, new Moray House bulidings, the Scotsman, Dynamic Earth, and probably a few I've forgotten. It's no longer the World's End, but that's still around the corner. :cool:

It'll soon be time to stand up and be proud of our Parliament as we promulgate our presence on the International Stage.

Where next? Aberdeen? Glasgow? I can talk for just as long about their archictecture, or lack of it, too. Please just don't get me started :eyes

Not rising to Rich's crude bait. Ye'll be needan' better 'an deid wormies Buyee.

JAWS
03-Jun-04, 01:41
You make some good points there simian sally, it could be a building anywhere in the world.

There would appear to be nothing about it that shouts "This is Scotland!" and that is surely what they were aiming at.

The whole thing was created so MSP's could feel important on the world stage by astounding everyone with an impresive display of architecture.

Sorry to disillusion them but buildings do not make good governments.

What will make Scotland important on the world stage will be the policies and decisions made by the people inside the building.

How many people were impressed by a building on Robin Island?

The Titanic impressed everyone with her fixtures and fittings but I'll bet there were hundreds of passengers who wished that a little more time had gone into providing lifeboats and a little less on trying to impress the plebs.

golach
03-Jun-04, 14:49
The whole thing was created so MSP's could feel important on the world stage by astounding everyone with an impresive display of architecture.
Sorry to disillusion them but buildings do not make good governments.
What will make Scotland important on the world stage will be the policies and decisions made by the people inside the building.

Jaws, how very true but still sadly we have been lumbered with what I consider a white elephant of a building.
When the "Scottish Office" moved to the all singing all dancing building on Victoria Quay it also was custom built and would be the envy of all. But its falling apart already, staff are complaining about the humidity & lack of air-conditioning,the swimming pool for staff has been closed for years because of cracks and leaks, had nobody the foresite to listen to the Environmentalists reference "Global Warming" and the forseen changes in the climate of this country?
A perfect example of the lack of thought in a similar situation is the lack of air-conditioning in Edinburgh's state of the art "New Royal Infirmary", which last summer nearly closed down because the staff were dropping like flies because of the heat. Ok they are going to add air-circulation upgrades, at what cost to us again?
So how long before our Concrete and Glass monstrosity starts cracking and warping? The main contractor "Bovis" does not have an exemplary record for even house building
Golach

simian sally
04-Jun-04, 00:02
My Dear JAWS, we were talking about the building itself, not the reasons for building it. Those are less clear, to say the least. You clearly haven't visited Robben Island. There are some wonderful buildings there. Nice climate too. Why not spend some time on it and find out for yourself?

Golach, I agree with you on the new ERI. But that was built on the cheap with PPP money, where "on the cheap" doesn't mean that it didn't cost a lot. :eyes

The question that needs asking about the Victoira Quay bulilding is:-

What was wrong with the Royal High School building, St Andrews house and the rest of Waterloo Place, that whole area could have been turned into a showpiece site at a fraction of the cost
:cool:

Personally, I would have built the Scottish Parliament a little further west. There's a nice space on the other side of Dumbarton Road from the Western Infirmary. It's close to the park and not too far from some awesome shopping.

JAWS
04-Jun-04, 00:42
You're right simian sally I only saw it from the sea. Mind you it was still in use at the time.

When one particular resident there whispered much of the world stopped to listen. The man, the words and the ideas were listened to by most of the world's leaders.
He certainly didn't need an over-expensive pile of building materials to gain attention or to secure his place in history.

I have no general objections to modern buildings provided they are in the right location. This one isn't. Buildings can be impressive without being obtrusive. One which just screams "I'm here, look at me!" is just vulgar.

A building should have manners and this one doesn't, it is mearly a loud, uncouth exibitionist.

simian sally
04-Jun-04, 01:28
Lo JAWS!

I am ROFL here because I am reading your last post in a Mandela accent. :lol:


I have no general objections to modern buildings provided they are in the right location. This one isn't. Buildings can be impressive without being obtrusive. One which just screams "I'm here, look at me!" is just vulgar.

A building should have manners and this one doesn't, it is mearly a loud, uncouth exibitionist.
Once again, it is perfectly clear that you haven't seen the building or walked around the surrounding area. The Parliament fits in perfectly with its neighbours, the ones I listed above. Ok, so the Scotsman Building is a teenie weenie bit old fashioned, but what do you expect from Neil's lot? The rest are modernism personified. Oh yes, and there is a palace of some sort nearby, but that's hidden behind trees, high walls and grassy banks.

Methinks thou dost but spout building envy.

Ok enough jousting. Where would YOU host the Scottish Parliament? What sort of building do you think would be suitable? I assume modesty would be the order of the day.

Glolach has given his opinion. I challenge you to come up with a different solution.

JAWS
04-Jun-04, 04:35
I'm glad it doesn't ruin the view from the palace but is it hidden from the castle?

It's a long time since I was in Edinburgh but Glasgow still had trams at the time and Waverley Station was full of steam trains.

Why does it have to be crammed into a small site in the city centre. There must be plenty of open spaces in the Edinburgh area, and no I don't mean somewhere nobody else would touch.

Somewhere on the main transport routes with plenty of space for expansion should it be necessary in the future. Somewhere with easy access for the public and for the people employed there. Somewhere where people have a dramatic view and approach to it and where it can be seen from a distance with nothing in competition.

I admit that I am no architect so just what the design should be would be best left to others. (I never did get the hang of creativity, just demolition I'm afraid)

I thought the whole idea was that the building should make a statement that "This Is Scotland" not "Where did you say it was?"

Where any Scots at all involved in the design or construction? I mean other than workers just being told to 'get on with it' or MSP's and Civil Servants squabbling over it.

I can only hope that after almost half a billion pounds has been spent on it that once it is completed it doesn't become famous for being a 'joke'.

golach
04-Jun-04, 09:11
I would have sited the abomination on the old Ravenscraig Steel works site that would make it very central, and a fitting place for regeneration :evil
Golach

Partan
04-Jun-04, 19:26
I would have sited the abomination on the old Ravenscraig Steel works site that would make it very central....


Remembering that this is a Caithness Forum, central to where?

Partan

golach
04-Jun-04, 20:27
Partan, if you want it you have it, it would fill the empty space at the Caithness Glass site [lol]
Goalch

George Brims
04-Jun-04, 22:01
That thing is HORRIBLE. It is a hodge-podge of clashing shapes, with no unifying theme, like the Getty museum in LA. At least the Getty is all finished in one pleasant stone, instead of a child's crayon box of colours.

Why on earth have they put a modernistic mish-mash of a thing like that in a region of traditional architecture? The houses right next to it were built in the 70s yet were designed to complement the older buildings of the area. JAWS, I have seen the Sydney Opera House and it is impressive, not only in its striking form but because it sits isolated on its peninsula and doesn't clash with anything else.

And before anyone thinks I'm an old f*rt who desn't like modern architecture, I just love the new Disney Theater in LA, by the same architect as the Guggenhaim Museum in Bilbao, Frank Gehry.

Anonymous
04-Jun-04, 22:04
I think this is a wee bit of cunning electioneering. :eyes
There is no way that the people of Scotland would allow such a carbunkle to be planted within the walls of Auld Reekie without a fuss. Thank goodness for local planners. :eek: Obviously this is a well executed piece of doctored photography to fool us simple people into believing this is a real building.
This building actually exists in the latin quarter of San Fransiso and has been cunningly placed to look as if it is in Auld Reekie
If you look closely, there is clearly Elvis and Maryln Monroe at a second floor window. Good but not good enough.
No matter how many times you try and tell us folk south of the border, no way has that much money been wasted in a building. We have seen the parliament on telly.They've got a building......why would you need another? :confused
Phew thank goodness for common sense. Just come clean. You've spent the money in Irn Bru research [lol]

simian sally
05-Jun-04, 01:28
Moan, moan, moan.

Whinge, whinge, whinge.

Moan, moan, moan.

Here and on the D Day thread.

Moan, moan, moan.

The new Parliament doesn't look anything like the new Getty museum. It is not in a region of traditional architecture. The whole area has been rebuilt. Yet another armchair critic who clearly has not been in the area in many years. Are Golach and I the only ones who actually know the development. It certainly seems so from what has been posted here. He and I disagree, but I respect his opinion. Not so the rest.

I recall a similar thread about Wick about a year ago. Not much has changed.

Truly sad.

Jack McConnell made a mistake. He realised. He is doing the right thing.

Pity yon chiel South o' the Border in Number 10 isn't up to doing same over WMD and Iraq.

Moan, moan, moan.

I know Nelson Mandela. He is unlike most of you.

golach
05-Jun-04, 02:24
Here and on the D Day thread.


Jack McConnell made a mistake. He realised. He is doing the right thing.

Pity yon chiel South o' the Border in Number 10 isn't up to doing same over WMD and Iraq.

Moan, moan, moan.

I know Nelson Mandela. He is unlike most of you.

Simian Sally you have got my dander up now, himself thon Jack cheil from the west made a beeg mistake. he didna realise how beeg!!! and he never even apologised!!!
As for Nelson Mandela I think he is the greatest .....But would you live in Suid Afrika these days....I did in the days before aparthied was abolished ( no that I agree with it),
I would not live there now, but it was a lot safer to live in places like J'oberg and Cap Stad before the new government came to power
Golach

JAWS
05-Jun-04, 03:11
Is somebody around here a Civil Servant?

gleeber
05-Jun-04, 10:12
I have to aggree with Ms Sally on this one. Always the same bunch o whingers an moaners. I have only seen the building from the photos linked on caithness.org, mighy immpressive.

Anonymous
05-Jun-04, 11:58
In a couple of years this will all be forgotten, and we'll all be moaning about their plans to turn Princes Street Gardens into a giant Skateboard park for the tourists :roll:

JAWS
05-Jun-04, 15:54
Both strings prove the same point. Jump first, think later!

McConnell changed his mind because he realised he was getting very bad publicity and would not be able to explain it away. He no doubt hope that everybody would be as disinterested in the memorial of D-day as he is.
Is there no free lunch in Normandy?

People like McConnell and Co think they are important. They are not! They are there on sufferance and it only takes one election and they are consigned to the dustbin of history.

Back on the subject of the building. Perhaps if the MSP's had been allowed to find out what was required before the building was started it might have been better. It might have saved the mess of realising it didn't have enough space after it had been designed and building started.

The rush was purely so certain people could have their own way. Somebody obviously didn't trust the people to return MSP's who would just sit back and do as they were told!

Good ploy simian sally but I really did expect better of you. The trick of attacking the opposition if you feel you are loosing the arguement that's defeatist!

That building, from the photographs so far would look hideous anywhere!
Maybe when it's finished I will change my mind. You never know.

Sorry to moan and whinge but if the suffragettes hadn't moaned and whinged women would still not have the vote.

gleeber
05-Jun-04, 19:34
Your surely no comparing the cause of the suffragettes to the moaning and whining we see on caithness.org? :eek:
Its interesting to note golach preferred apartheid South Africa to the independent and democratic South Africa. Its a bit like a right winger saying the Germany of the 1930s was the place to be. :confused
Tradition has had its day!

MadPict
05-Jun-04, 20:07
Hmmm............ [disgust]

golach
05-Jun-04, 20:16
Ach gleeber, glad to see you back and as vitriolic as ever [disgust]
I never said I prefered the old Suid Afrika to the new Democracy of South Africa, all I said is that it was safer for a non coloured person to live there then than now ...notice the Scots lady who was murdered in front of her husband in the papers recently? Well I never noticed that occuring in the 60's. an if I remember right Suid Afrika was never under German influence, but was governed by the the Afrikaans who were the Boers who were of Dutch decent.
Golach

JAWS
05-Jun-04, 21:40
Sorry Gleeber but chaining myself to railings and trying to trip up the King's race horse just ain't my style.

B.O.S.S Rules OK.

girniegoe
05-Jun-04, 21:58
Isn't it always the case that in architecture as in art anything new and "not traditional" is greeted with shock and horror but with time and "outside" praise becomes soemthing to be proud of! The Sydney Opera House is a prime example, it is a fact that the original architect there had to leave Australia and that costs sprialled out of control now its known and admired all over the world and held up as a prime example of modern initiatives in architecture.

I know the figures for our Parliament building are mind boggling but just decide to do a wee bit of decorating at home go to buy the paper/paint etc etc and more etceteras and your costs will have spiralled don't even go along the with thoughts of new extensions etc!!

Whatever we say or do it is coming together and will be admired while many of us willl still be muttering "waste of bliddy money" "disgrace" "shambles". shame.

gleeber
05-Jun-04, 22:00
Golach, of course it was safer to be white in apartheid South Africa. Dont you remember there were laws against being black or coloured :roll:
Personally I reckon thats a blunder at least on the scale of Jacks boo boo. Yersel an chaws wid fit into that bonnnie wee building lek bees in a bunnet.

JAWS
05-Jun-04, 22:45
Back to Buildings!

The Voortrekker Memorial now there's an outstanding piece of design. That really does look impressive.

Girniegoe, Who comprises the "Outside" when it comes to praise?

The Sydney Opera House is certainly recognisable, but didn't they have a slight problem with the accoustics?

Whatever happend to art created by "events" in the 1960's. That was Modern and "Not Traditional". Poring paint on a canvas and then rolling around in it really caught on.

Skiffle was the same in the 1950's. How many Skiffle Bands have you seen this year?
Anybody still got a washboard?

Tower Blocks. "Give them time and you will learn to love them!" Oh Aye, When?

In one city they built flats to rival the Georgian Crescents in Bath. The Architect won awards from all over for their design. There would be "Walkways in the Sky".
The bulldozers moved in just over 30 years later. Now they look fantastic!

Just because it's "New" does not necessarily make it good. Things become Traditional because they have been tried, tested and improved upon until they have been perfected. That's why they last.

I wonder what the accoustics are like in the "Debating Chamber"? Any Australian Opera Singers handy?

girniegoe
05-Jun-04, 23:58
Jaws calm down you sound so irate. I'm definitely not against traditional - very muich the opposite in fact but I don't close my eyes and dismiss all things new.

Sure the Sydney Opera house had problems - they sorted them. As happens with most new initiatives.

Have only seen the Voortrekker Memorial in pictures and on stamps - some of which incidentally carried a surcharge towards paying for the memorial. Wonder none of our chancellors have given that a go!

Event art still goes on - not just throwing paint around and rolling in it! And though I personally may think most of it stupid that is only my opinion.

Skiffle wasn't new in the 50s/60s just a rehash of something older and better

Tower blocks aren't all bad either many still standing and new ones being built - bad planning and materials made many of them unworkable. Many living in cities cherish their highliving panoramic views and are willing pay well for them.

Just expressing my "middle road" opinions after all!

JAWS
06-Jun-04, 01:50
girniegoe I'm not irate at all, just mischievious. (That's blown my cover!) [evil]

Just to be fair, the Pyramids - can't stand all those perfect angles, Stonehenge - spoils the view! :eyes

I have to confess that the Sydney Opera House does appeal to me. One thing you are wrong about is the new initiatives. All new initiatives have teething problems.

The Voortrekker Memorial, yes I have been and must admit I was impressed. (Very difficult to do, it's usually against my principles)

Modern art - no problem - until somebody decides either that they are going to "shock" everybody or try to see how gullible people are.

As for good modern architecture - Coventry Cathedral and "Paddy's Wigwam" as it's affectionately known in Liverpool immediately spring to mind. Well designed, suitable for their function and make a meaningful statement about their reason for being.

Still don't like the Edinburgh Thing so far though!

girniegoe
06-Jun-04, 20:45
Good on ye, Jaws, hev til admit Ahm inclined til agree wi ye! so Ah'll pit ma wooden spoon back in ae draar for a whilie!

JAWS
07-Jun-04, 00:04
Where's simian sally? I'm missing her. :o)

golach
07-Jun-04, 08:02
Me also Jaws

Golach

George Brims
07-Jun-04, 19:37
The situation with the Sydney Opera House is that the acoustics are STILL bad but are being worked on. The sad thing is that the original architect who was pushed off the project is not being asked to consult on the renovation. He is very old now and a bit upset. He claims (and I don't know if he's right or wrong) that everything would have been fine if they had let him finish it in the first place.

I have to take something back. I said the new Parliament building broke with tradition. Actually it is exactly in the tradition of the city of Edniburgh. For examples of this tradition, called "bulldoze it and stick in something different", look at how they enhanced that Georgian crescent at the start of London Road, with the yellow and white concrete building (which has a different number of floors from the buildings on either side), or the concrete monstrosity of the St James Centre, or the University of Edinburgh Student Center across from the McEwan hall, or those bonnie concrete boxes they (the Uni again) put in place of the south side of George Square in the late 60s.

Everything in its place!

Girnigoe I don't actually think the problem with the Parliament building is that it's "new" or "shocking". I think the problem is, as I said before, it's too many different styles of not-actually-very-new all mashed together. It's definitely showing signs of having been designed, or at least approved, by committee.

JAWS
07-Jun-04, 20:16
Well said George Brims that was the point I was trying to make but you have done it far better.

The whole "Bulldoze it" method is a hang over from the sixties. The "Shut-up, we know best" line of thought added to "Destroy anything old or traditional, this is the Brave New World". I'm still waiting for the mess to be sorted out in the hope I might see the "Brave New World" but I doubt it. Maybe my grand-children will!

I hope the new Parliament Building serves it's purpose better than the Sydney Opera House. I dread to think how long they have been trying to get the accoustics right or how much it must have cost.

"Never mind the accoustics, just admire how it looks!" Sounds like the old TV comedy -"Never Mind the Quality Feel the Width!"

Unfortunately I suspect the New Parliament Building will follow the same tradition. Never mind what it looks like It's Modern.

simian sally
08-Jun-04, 01:15
George and JAWS, what can I say? You are like a pair of old men sitting on a park bench and moaning about one thing because another thing was done wrongly 40 years ago. It is a very male thing, and totally harmless if ignored entirely. From now on, I shall think of you as two of the leading characters from "Last of the Summer Wine", but not quite as entertaining. Would you like me to be your Nora Batty?

I know most of the buldings in Edinburgh that George complains about. I don't recall the one on London Road, but I know the others. He is right. They are 60s monstrosities. But their 60s' monstrousness has little or no bearing on the new Parliament. Very few monstrous buildings have been built in Edinburgh since that time.

The same applies to Glasgow.

Moan, moan, moan.

Whinge, whinge, whinge.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaah!

JAWS
08-Jun-04, 03:09
Forty years, and it's still not fixed? Bulldoze it and start again !

Nice offer though simian sally, but only if you can get the stockings, Nora just wouldn't be the same without them.

I'm not quite a Compo yet but I'm working on it! The Welly's should be no problem and the accent's nearly perfect.

It's a couple of years since I was in Glasgow. The Bus Station was new but the rest of what I saw looked like nothing had changed since the 1920s.

Moaning and Whinging, wait 'till I get going on something I really dislike! When that happens it's more like Ranting and Raving, but the Doctor usually gives me something for that before I burst a blood vessel.

Anyway, where were over the weekend, We'veI missed that still small voice of reason.

mike.mckenzie
08-Jun-04, 13:18
Liverpool RC Cathedral has actually only just been completed more than 40 years after it was started. They finally got round to putting the front entrance steps on it now and was finally completed earlier this year.

The steps, incidentally, are the best thing about it, its a disgusting mash of steel and concrete 60's design that is far too prevalent here in the Pool. It also looks like it is going to fall down.

the other cathedral however, is gothic, imposing and majestic.

CL
08-Jun-04, 15:12
Its a political ploy for the Caithness Electorate......

You will be counting your blessings that you live in Caithness and not Edinburgh.
At least they will only stick a windmill up in your back garden as opposed to a montrosity like that!!

The shot of the East Elevation of the MSP Building looks like some form of Detention Centre.....

How much of the 500million pounds was spent on hallucinogenic drugs for the designers and local planners!!
:eek:

rich
10-Jun-04, 16:01
Will it be possible to open the windows?
Or is it a sealed coffin type building?
Why is there no provision to commemorate the millions of African-Scots who successfuly escaped from the rapacious clutches of their slave masters?
Why is there no room for a statue of Louis Armstrong???? I see they recently named the New Orleans international airport after him.
Why can't we have a Louis Armstrong airport in Edinburgh - if we are to be denied the statue. (And let's put one of Dexter Gordon while we are about it...)