View Full Version : Micro Generation
A lot of talk in the new parliament about this linked to feed tarrifs (selling power back to the grid).
Trouble is any green micro generation is very expensive and won't cover cost in its lifetime so a dead duck as far as I am concerned. However, I remember that the UK has a network of giant diesel generators that can be brought on-line to fill need as and when.
So I was wondering about the feasibility of a home sized diesel generator. I understand they are very economical to run, I wonder if it would be cheaper than mains? Not very green but I don't really care about that.:eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_generator
Scroll down for costs - looks interesting good thought.
OK when I was a Lighthouse Keeper the Station was run by a Diesel Generator. We had three of them and any single one could supply enough pwer to run the whole atation. Each Generator ran for a week at a time for 24 hours a day. The Generators were made by Lister and were air-cooled. They required to be serviced, we did the servicing, after a weeks running.
These generators supplied up to 60kw at 50 cycles with an output of 240v.
The fuel consumption was one gallon of fuel an hour, ie 24 gallons of diesel a day. If you bought the fuel at todays retail price, then for this type of generator it would cost you about £140.00 for fuel per each 24 hours of running.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_generator
Scroll down for costs - looks interesting good thought.
Thanks davem I'll look into this a bit further, interested about alternative fuel use as well.
OK when I was a Lighthouse Keeper the Station was run by a Diesel Generator. We had three of them and any single one could supply enough pwer to run the whole atation. Each Generator ran for a week at a time for 24 hours a day. The Generators were made by Lister and were air-cooled. They required to be serviced, we did the servicing, after a weeks running.
These generators supplied up to 60kw at 50 cycles with an output of 240v.
The fuel consumption was one gallon of fuel an hour, ie 24 gallons of diesel a day. If you bought the fuel at todays retail price, then for this type of generator it would cost you about £140.00 for fuel per each 24 hours of running.
Blimey-only a buyer spending tax payers money would spring for that :eek:
We looked into all this guff a while back. Whilst we like the idea of being self sufficient or 'off grid', unless you've bucket loads of cash to go Green, or you're happy living pretty much without power it's a waste of time n' effort.
There are so many hidden cost's and issues to factor in, like the servicing, redundancy etc. etc. it's easier and more cost efficient to get a decent grid tariff and be smarter with your power use.
Anyway, what about our little scheme for going nuclear?
Micro Nuclear generation-I like the sound of that, clean, efficient, reliable.
Discussed it with the wife she thinks it's a goer. The only problem she can come up with is what to do with the waste? I have had a think about that and I will just dump into next doors garden like I do the grass cuttings.
Anyone work at Dounreay and can nick me an old radiation suit? ;)
These guys have got it cracked and for $9.95!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Free-Energy-Generator-Engine-No-Gas-Diesel-Oil-Fuel-/330438354963?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cefa92813
That got me all excited, until I scrolled down.
The plasma reactor does look pretty cool, I think for $10 the sheer entertainment value is worth it never mind anything else!
I reckon CaithnessMicroNuclear (TM) Inc. is a goer though.
Just put the waste in the recycling bin, duh.
Happy Guy
30-May-10, 12:48
If you are at all interested in micro generation and similar areas of renewable energy, book the 26th of June in your diary and come to Caithness Horizons for an interesting day and that most mystical of things, a FREE lunch!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4638570204_9cb6884b18_b.jpg
That got me all excited, until I scrolled down.
The plasma reactor does look pretty cool, I think for $10 the sheer entertainment value is worth it never mind anything else!
I reckon CaithnessMicroNuclear (TM) Inc. is a goer though.
Just put the waste in the recycling bin, duh.
No No the bin guys get really cross if you put stuff in that's not on the list :eek:
A lot of talk in the new parliament about this linked to feed tarrifs (selling power back to the grid).
Trouble is any green micro generation is very expensive and won't cover cost in its lifetime so a dead duck as far as I am concerned. However, I remember that the UK has a network of giant diesel generators that can be brought on-line to fill need as and when.
So I was wondering about the feasibility of a home sized diesel generator. I understand they are very economical to run, I wonder if it would be cheaper than mains? Not very green but I don't really care about that.:eek:
A 4kW solar array will fetch you back ~£15,000, a hefty amount to invest for the future, but what do you get in return?
In Caithness we should expect about 900 hours of sunshine per year, according to government info. The government will pay you 43.1p per kWh and an extra 3.1p for every kWh that you export to the grid. They will assume that you will only use half of what you will produce if you choose not to install an export meter. So according to the info I just gave you, you can expect to earn £1600 per year and you will save about £500 pa on your electricity bills. I estimate your solar panels will payback in at least 7 years, probably less due to index linking of the tariff, consumer behavior and that the system will produce some electricity in overcast conditions.
You could then use the profit to pay for all your utilities in the remaining 33 years of life of the system, possibly £90,000 over its lifetime for that original investment.
You need a good south facing 30 degree pitched roof to get the most out of a system like that which is prohibitive in a lot of cases.
You could then use the profit to pay for all your utilities in the remaining 33 years of life of the system, possibly £90,000 over its lifetime for that original investment.
If the government would guarantee these subsidies for the project life, I'd be in. I think most astute business folk would be too!
If the government would guarantee these subsidies for the project life, I'd be in. I think most astute business folk would be too!
They are guaranteed for 25 years but tbh I think the subsidies will continue as the mounting political will to curb carbon emissions continues.
They are guaranteed for 25 years but tbh I think the subsidies will continue as the mounting political will to curb carbon emissions continues.
Really? That sounds too good to be true! I might stop my pension contributions and divert them into solar panels!
If the gov't was serious about this, and these panels are as good as they say, and we can guarantee this return, and 25 Yr service life then why aren't they funding this by way of a loan for the first 7-8 yrs?
If they are serious, and these are so good. Why not? They get the green credentials, the homeowner gets subsidised leccy (and after 8 yrs wonga), the industry gets supported (jobs, spending, economy fixed(ish)).
I've been looking into them and would plant a few on me roof but I cannae afford it.
NickInTheNorth
02-Aug-11, 10:31
If they are so serious about it and it is so good then why not install them on every publicly owned building in the UK FOC, including all social housing, let the building occupier have what they can use at say 10p per unit, and sell the rest into the grid...
nah, stupid idea, it would not have any benefit to the wealthiest 1% so there would be no point in doing it...
It will be possible to apply for a loan like with a car.
If they are so serious about it and it is so good then why not install them on every publicly owned building in the UK FOC, including all social housing, let the building occupier have what they can use at say 10p per unit, and sell the rest into the grid...
nah, stupid idea, it would not have any benefit to the wealthiest 1% so there would be no point in doing it...
It will probably come to that in the full goodness of time, but as economics usually works, new things are always highly priced, it is called the 'skim price concept', I think (remembering vaguely my Business Studies A level here), where marketing strategies are always directed at those who can pay handsomely for the latest thing and the feed in tariff system works well with that.
Just at the minute, the way you describe would burden the taxpayer at a time when we need to reduce deficits.
It will probably come to that in the full goodness of time, but as economics usually works, new things are always highly priced, it is called the 'skim price concept', I think (remembering vaguely my Business Studies A level here), where marketing strategies are always directed at those who can pay handsomely for the latest thing and the feed in tariff system works well with that.
Just at the minute, the way you describe would burden the taxpayer at a time when we need to reduce deficits.So it's actually rich mans folly rather than an attempt to reduce carbon emissions?
I can't seem to find an actual UK annual budget / spend for carbon reduction by the Govt but I see figures of £3bn bandied about (this actually seems way too low). To put a fraction of this to subsidise loans (all guaranteed remember) would actually be a huge benefit for the taxpayer as they get the money back!
So it's actually rich mans folly rather than an attempt to reduce carbon emissions?
I can't seem to find an actual UK annual budget / spend for carbon reduction by the Govt but I see figures of £3bn bandied about (this actually seems way too low). To put a fraction of this to subsidise loans (all guaranteed remember) would actually be a huge benefit for the taxpayer as they get the money back!
From what I have seen and read, it wouldn't be cost effective to borrow money to pay for it. (otherwise the home improvement door to door brigade would be all over it like a rash). Where it is useful, is if you have the cash lying in a bank not earning any interest it would give you a much better return. Of course the downside is if you want a return, you are locked into your current house for a long time.
Well let us put things into perspective, a new family car would easily cost £15,000 and be relatively worthless in 10 years and would cost twice as much to replace. A solar panel array would cost the same, add value to a property's value, last 40 years, reduce carbon emissions, earn and save money.
Typical org to make out something that isn't to good to be true to be a rip off though.
So you're obviously doing it then?
Well I'm all for it and I firmly believe that any changes to reduce carbon / emissions / pollutants and improve energy efficiency, reduce energy usage needs to come from the domestic sector. Small scale domestic renewable generation could make a huge impact, if we can afford it. And by we I mean the average householder.
Something is a ripoff. A 4KW array should be about £5000 to £6500. Even that is a huge chunk of cash to find, but put it on yer roof and it turns into £16,000! :eek:
I go back to my original point, if it's so good why doesn't Davey & Geordie put a few quid aside (which they get back) to help UK PLC hit the Kyoto targets and help the voters with their bills?
I go back to my original point, if it's so good why doesn't Davey & Geordie put a few quid aside (which they get back) to help UK PLC hit the Kyoto targets and help the voters with their bills?
I think that is for political reasons, tories want to reduce the size of the state because they want tax cuts, to do what your suggesting would require a huge amount of public borrowing for little return back to the Government.
I'm not defending the system, just describing how it is in the real world rather than the ideal world. I just wanted to point out what someone with a few thousand quid can do to improve their lives if they are unhappy with interest returns from the bank. In fact if we encourage more rich people to go for solar panels then they will become more affordable for the ordinary person much sooner as the solar industry matures.
ywindythesecond
03-Aug-11, 00:14
What we are talking about here is Feed-in Tariffs. Below is from the CWIF website. FiTs apply to wind, solar, hydro and other renewable sources. The main point is that if you set up solar panels or a small turbine etc, it is not the Government who subsidises you, it is your neighbour.
Of course it takes an awful lot of small turbines to be as oppressive as a large windfarm, but the motivation behind these things and the potential for them to intrude on people's lives is just as bad as ROCs and large windfarms. They are springing up because of "Feed-in Tariffs". This is another way of trying to comply with the requirement to produce energy from renewables sources agreed to by Blair before he left office. It is not designed to reduce carbon emissions.
This is how it works. If I were to erect a small turbine on my property, supposedly to supply my own electricity needs, then my electricity supplier would pay me something like 27p per unit for the electricity I generated even if I used it myself. If I didn't use it myself but fed it back into the grid, my supplier would pay me the same 27p per unit plus a few pence more. Figures are rough but give an idea. My electricity supplier takes the cost of paying me to use my own electricity and spreads it around everyone else's bills. Why erect a small (3kw?) turbine which is enough for my needs when I can erect a pretty powerful one (6kw?) and get even more money from my neighbours for it? So, if your neighbour wants a small turbine, just be aware that you personally will pay more for his electricity over the next twenty years than he will.
Learn about feed-in tariffs here:
Energy Saving Trust (http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme) website and Ofgem (http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/Pages/fits.aspx) website plus Feed-In Tariffs (http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/eligible/levels/)
The main point is that if you set up solar panels or a small turbine etc, it is not the Government who subsidises you, it is your neighbour.
Well not all of it is paid by the neighbour, a proportion divided up by other energy consumers including the owner of the micro generator.
But if everyone is unhappy with the current system, The Green Party's policy is to use current welfare support to assist low income earners to have micro-renewables fitted to their homes without any increase on energy prices and the money for it will come from central taxation.
Out of interest ywindythesecond, how would you encourage homeowners to take up micro-generation if you called the shots?
Well not all of it is paid by the neighbour, a proportion divided up by other energy consumers including the owner of the micro generator.
But if everyone is unhappy with the current system, The Green Party's policy is to use current welfare support to assist low income earners to have micro-renewables fitted to their homes without any increase on energy prices and the money for it will come from central taxation.
Out of interest ywindythesecond, how would you encourage homeowners to take up micro-generation if you called the shots?
It would be interesting to see figures on how many households would need to be involved to make a significant impact on the amount of commercial generation we need.
Lets say every dwelling in the UK could generate half of the potential, how much of the annual need could be produced?
I think that is for political reasons, tories want to reduce the size of the state because they want tax cuts, to do what your suggesting would require a huge amount of public borrowing for little return back to the Government.At least there is a return. Not like the many hundreds of millions that literally get pished up the wall and the many, many billions that is spent, never to see again. At least this money would be returned, even at a small profit, to the treasury.
Back to our rip off. This is purely corporate prifiteering dressed up as 'Green', tree hugging planet saving. Keeping the middle class yahoos happy that they think they're doing 'their bit' for the planet (while he drives his 4.2 litre audi to work in the city (doesn't want his personal space invaded by plebs and the working classes on a train) and she drops off little Pippa at kindergarten in her 4.4 litre Range Rover Sport before doing lunch).
A friend of mine has given up a £200k PA job to go and install these little beauties, and I'm seriously considering being an installer myself. And, to be perfectly honest, my bank balance is taking a priority over green credentials here.
This is just Robin Hood in reverse - taking from the poor to give to the rich. Those with enough money can instal micro renewables and get paid not just for what they sell but also for what they use so no more bills. Those without watch their bills soaring and will get further into fuel poverty. Good scheme [evil]
This is just Robin Hood in reverse - taking from the poor to give to the rich. Those with enough money can instal micro renewables and get paid not just for what they sell but also for what they use so no more bills. Those without watch their bills soaring and will get further into fuel poverty. Good scheme [evil]
How will you encourage home owners to take up micro-renewables if you called the shots?
George Brims
05-Aug-11, 00:13
You need a good south facing 30 degree pitched roof to get the most out of a system like that which is prohibitive in a lot of cases.
A steeper pitch would be better in Caithness since the sun is low in the sky. However also since the sun creeps round a whole lot of the horizon in the summer, you would be as well having some facing East and West as well as South.
ywindythesecond
12-Aug-11, 23:06
Well not all of it is paid by the neighbour, a proportion divided up by other energy consumers including the owner of the micro generator.
But if everyone is unhappy with the current system, The Green Party's policy is to use current welfare support to assist low income earners to have micro-renewables fitted to their homes without any increase on energy prices and the money for it will come from central taxation.
Out of interest ywindythesecond, how would you encourage homeowners to take up micro-generation if you called the shots?
Well I would say to homeowners, get yourself a small windmill or some pv panels as soon as you can because the Feed-in Tariff opportunity will soon end as Government realises that you can fool some of the people all of the time etc.etc.
I would encourage homeowners who want to take up micro generation under FITs to explain to their neighbours that the small wind turbine or pv roof panels will provide the homeowner with a guaranteed income (inflation proof) for 20 or 25 years, and that the homeowner is grateful to the neighbours for their contribution for that good fortune. I would encourage homeowners to get written approval from their neighbours before installing microgeneration under FITs. Saves any backbiting later.
Homeowners considering installing micro generation without the support of FITs should do so if they can afford it, and enjoy the hobby. Otherwise, don’t do it.
A 4kW solar array will fetch you back ~£15,000, a hefty amount to invest for the future, but what do you get in return?
In Caithness we should expect about 900 hours of sunshine per year, according to government info. The government will pay you 43.1p per kWh and an extra 3.1p for every kWh that you export to the grid. They will assume that you will only use half of what you will produce if you choose not to install an export meter. So according to the info I just gave you, you can expect to earn £1600 per year and you will save about £500 pa on your electricity bills. I estimate your solar panels will payback in at least 7 years, probably less due to index linking of the tariff, consumer behavior and that the system will produce some electricity in overcast conditions.
You could then use the profit to pay for all your utilities in the remaining 33 years of life of the system, possibly £90,000 over its lifetime for that original investment.
You need a good south facing 30 degree pitched roof to get the most out of a system like that which is prohibitive in a lot of cases.
we have this system in for 3 months now and so far they are out producing the gov figures very pleased with them, and the feed in tarrif is indext linked and garenteed on a contract for 25 years and the life of the pannels is expected to be 40 so even after the tarrif stops you still benifit from the free leccy only down side is you need the cash to pay for them in the first place
This is just Robin Hood in reverse - taking from the poor to give to the rich. Those with enough money can instal micro renewables and get paid not just for what they sell but also for what they use so no more bills. Those without watch their bills soaring and will get further into fuel poverty. Good scheme [evil]
most electricity suppliers will offer a fitting of the pannels free and a promise of no bills and they will keep the FIT money as there payment so that excuse dont wash !!! sorry
we have this system in for 3 months now and so far they are out producing the gov figures very pleased with them, and the feed in tarrif is indext linked and garenteed on a contract for 25 years and the life of the pannels is expected to be 40 so even after the tarrif stops you still benifit from the free leccy only down side is you need the cash to pay for them in the first place
Interesting...., but at the moment we're getting plenty of sunshine with these long summer days. What happens in December when we're down to six hours or even less of daylight; will the panels still produce enough electrickery for all our needs?
Can you post a link to your installer's website please.
the gov figures give a monthly breakdown of what you expect to produce and this is taken into account and its not sunlight they work on its daylight better with sun of course but the design of the PV system covers both.
and it was www.solarelectricitysystems.co.uk (http://www.solarelectricitysystems.co.uk) or the UPVC company if the link dose not work its the same people
Hypothetical question. If one were to buy an old watermill (to live in) and restore the milllade and wheely gubbins. Would it be practical to install a generator and make lecky?
dont see why not but the feed in tarrif differs dedending on what generation system you have !
dont see why not but the feed in tarrif differs dedending on what generation system you have !
I think that a degree of marketing strategy is involved, they've decided that about 7 years is enticing enough for customers to reap back their original investment on the different generation systems, they then take into account the different efficiencies then they adjust the FiT to get that 7 year payback marketing ploy. I don't think it is a coincidence that all the different systems have the same payback periods.
most electricity suppliers will offer a fitting of the pannels free and a promise of no bills and they will keep the FIT money as there paymentThis sounds pretty good, I'm impressed. have you any links or more info on this?
sorry only that a guy down the road has had the survey done and is in line for fitting just give ya supplier a call and take it from there i would suggest
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