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Shabbychic
26-May-10, 12:52
For those who are at present on sickness benefit, and also those who scream out that sickness benefits are being abused and are too easy to claim, there is a programme called, "Who's Cheating Who?" tonight at 10.45pm on BBC1 Scotland.

I think it will be very interesting, and may just show the truth about what people are up against. In fact things might become even worse, as this programme is about the new measures Labour brought about, and from what I hear, the new government is going to introduce even tougher measures. (if that is possible)

Remember, this is not just about those who are sick today, it is also for those who may, through no fault of their own, become sick tomorrow.

upolian
26-May-10, 13:04
Im not on benefits but...Why are these things so complicated?If you are sick you are entitled to benefits?How can people cheat the system?Is it really that easy to fool a doctor into writing a sick note? Not sure how this all work's but iam intrigued!! I will be watching this programme :) Does this mean people who are 'cheating' the system make it more difficult for genuine ill people to claim benefits?

Shabbychic
26-May-10, 13:20
Im not on benefits but...Why are these things so complicated?If you are sick you are entitled to benefits?How can people cheat the system?Is it really that easy to fool a doctor into writing a sick note? Not sure how this all work's but iam intrigued!! I will be watching this programme :) Does this mean people who are 'cheating' the system make it more difficult for genuine ill people to claim benefits?

All will be explained if you watch the programme. It is not about people cheating the system and making it harder for others, it's about the government paying billions to private companies to make sure very few qualify for sickness benefits. It's also about people with things like cancer or severe mental illness being told they must find a job. I think it may just open people's eyes about what is going on with the welfare system in Britain today.

Phill
26-May-10, 13:42
Is it really that easy to fool a doctor into writing a sick note?


Yes, incredibly easy.

upolian
26-May-10, 13:48
All will be explained if you watch the programme. It is not about people cheating the system and making it harder for others, it's about the government paying billions to private companies to make sure very few qualify for sickness benefits. It's also about people with things like cancer or severe mental illness being told they must find a job. I think it may just open people's eyes about what is going on with the welfare system in Britain today.

Thank you,very interested in this subject,ill be making sure i tune in to it.


Yes, incredibly easy.

Excuse my ignorance,but how?I find it difficult to see how its done?maybe im missing something??

Phill
26-May-10, 14:17
Excuse my ignorance,but how?I find it difficult to see how its done?maybe im missing something??

If your of the persuasion to lie or exaggerate things then it's quite straight forward. Go to the quacks and tell them you done something to your back, (you were working in the garden and moved some heavy bags of rubble etc.) do a quick google before going and and check that your 'symptoms' match those of a suitable diagnosis you have found.

"Ooh doc', I can't stand up straight, I can't lie down. I'm not sleeping, I can't do this or that.....blah blah blah."

The doc' will take this a face value as they won't have any reason to think your lying, they are there to help after all. There is little most GP's can do easily or quickly to validate or dispute various aches and pains, and why would they want to try and dispute what your saying.

Provided you said the right things and winced in apparent pain at the appropriate prods you'll be dancing out of the surgery clicking your heels with a sicknote and a bag full of painkillers.

Shabbychic
26-May-10, 14:59
If your of the persuasion to lie or exaggerate things then it's quite straight forward. Go to the quacks and tell them you done something to your back, (you were working in the garden and moved some heavy bags of rubble etc.) do a quick google before going and and check that your 'symptoms' match those of a suitable diagnosis you have found.

"Ooh doc', I can't stand up straight, I can't lie down. I'm not sleeping, I can't do this or that.....blah blah blah."

The doc' will take this a face value as they won't have any reason to think your lying, they are there to help after all. There is little most GP's can do easily or quickly to validate or dispute various aches and pains, and why would they want to try and dispute what your saying.

Provided you said the right things and winced in apparent pain at the appropriate prods you'll be dancing out of the surgery clicking your heels with a sicknote and a bag full of painkillers.

That is such an outdated view of reality. Actually, sick notes don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by fit notes, aka Statement of Fitness for Work. :)

I think you'll also find the new system, that the programme above is about, has very little to do with what GP's think, and more to do with private companies ticking boxes and making money, by indicating almost everyone is capable of work, no matter what their medical condition is.

sandyr1
26-May-10, 15:12
I think that the European dwellers, especially the UK, have a very relaxed, excellent if you want to call it that, social assistance program.
I do know both the UK and North America(Canada and the United States) quite well, and one would definitely not get the latitude that the UK does, where I am.
Yes I have seen programs about the UK system and is likely the most lax in the World. The Gov't has to tighten it up or you are going to go bankrupt! Be prepared...as they say!

Phill
26-May-10, 15:12
That is such an outdated view of reality. Actually, sick notes don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by fit notes, aka Statement of Fitness for Work.

Not really outdated, the principle is the same for those who do mislead and cheat the system.

Fitnote / sicknote, they'll be referred to as sicknotes for a few years yet.

Shabbychic
26-May-10, 15:26
I think that the European dwellers, especially the UK, have a very relaxed, excellent if you want to call it that, social assistance program.
I do know both the UK and North America(Canada and the United States) quite well, and one would definitely not get the latitude that the UK does, where I am.
Yes I have seen programs about the UK system and is likely the most lax in the World. The Gov't has to tighten it up or you are going to go bankrupt! Be prepared...as they say!

When did you see these programmes about how lax our system is?

Is this lax? HeraldScotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/benefits-agency-tells-severely-ill-people-they-must-seek-work-1.1030407). BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10161017.stm). Another BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10159717.stm). These are just a couple of examples of our LAX system.

Things have moved on from the Invalidity Pension days. It's a pity some people's views have not.

sandyr1
26-May-10, 15:37
When did you see these programmes about how lax our system is?

Is this lax? HeraldScotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/benefits-agency-tells-severely-ill-people-they-must-seek-work-1.1030407). BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10161017.stm). Another BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10159717.stm). These are just a couple of examples of our LAX system.

Things have moved on from the Invalidity Pension days. It's a pity some people's views have not.

On the BBC Worldwide/ newspapers/ caithness.org!

Free healthcare, Council housing, Social assistance, Free cars, etc.
The entitlement thing will eventually have to stop. Whole families living on 'Welfare' and proud of it! Be prepared!
And this is not critisism.....just fact. Remember, you brought up the Subject/ Am just commenting!

horseman
26-May-10, 15:54
Dunno how some of you see it?,but my daughter an son have both copped for a car free gratis from the state! An I am well chuffed at it.I have worked many many years to put that oppurtunity there,an all power to other young uns 'who have enough spunk to ride the system!!!!!:D

Shabbychic
26-May-10, 16:07
On the BBC Worldwide/ newspapers/ caithness.org!

Free healthcare, Council housing, Social assistance, Free cars, etc.
The entitlement thing will eventually have to stop. Whole families living on 'Welfare' and proud of it! Be prepared!
And this is not critisism.....just fact. Remember, you brought up the Subject/ Am just commenting!


See, this is the problem. The minute sickness benefit is mentioned, it is classed as welfare across the board. Incapacity Benefit, which is what I am talking about, has nothing to do with free healthcare, housing, social assistance, free prescritions, cars or families living on income or child support. Yes, some who claim incapacity benefit may fit into one or two of they catagories, but most don't.

The subject I brought up is about the new way sick people are being treated, and how private companies are costing the tax payer far more than those claiming Incapacity Benefit.

On another note, MSP Hugh O'Donnell has put forward the following motion in the Scottish Parliament:-

*S3M-6299♦ Hugh O’Donnell: Employment and Support Allowance, Unfit for Purpose—That the Parliament is concerned about the workings of the Employment and Support Allowance (ESA); notes evidence from the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) Service in Scotland that uncovers serious hardship experienced by ESA claimants across Scotland; considers that sickness benefits should support people in finding employment if they are able to work, but must also provide help for those who are not; considers that ESA is failing to find this balance and is putting pressure on sick and disabled people in Scotland; notes in particular, claims that the work capability assessment of ESA is making unsuitable decisions on claimants’ fitness for work and that 70% of CAB appeals against these decisions are being upheld, and resolves that ESA be urgently reviewed so that it can be made to work in the interests of the genuinely sick and disabled people of Central Scotland and the rest of the country.

Only a few MSP's have signed so far. I contacted both Jamie Stone and Rob Gibson about their views on this, and so far Jamie Stone has got back to me stating he agrees with it and has signed it.:)

wicker8
27-May-10, 12:38
Im not on benefits but...Why are these things so complicated?If you are sick you are entitled to benefits?How can people cheat the system?Is it really that easy to fool a doctor into writing a sick note? Not sure how this all work's but iam intrigued!! I will be watching this programme :) Does this mean people who are 'cheating' the system make it more difficult for genuine ill people to claim benefits?wel said totally agree

Puzzled
27-May-10, 12:41
Dunno how some of you see it?,but my daughter an son have both copped for a car free gratis from the state! An I am well chuffed at it.I have worked many many years to put that oppurtunity there,an all power to other young uns 'who have enough spunk to ride the system!!!!!:D

What an attitude! [disgust]

Max
27-May-10, 13:49
Wouldn't it be great if only those that actually needed the ESA or sickness benefits claimed it? Then there would be no reason to doubt people , no need to bring in more stringent claiming methods and everyone would be happy. It is the people who cheat the system that have brought about the problems for the genuine cases ......................

manloveswife
27-May-10, 13:59
Wouldn't it be great if only those that actually needed the ESA or sickness benefits claimed it? Then there would be no reason to doubt people , no need to bring in more stringent claiming methods and everyone would be happy. It is the people who cheat the system that have brought about the problems for the genuine cases ......................

Very true Max, the problem though is that those who cheat the system are possibly the most likely to pass the tests for eligibility. When you have people who are 3rd generation benefit claimants and know exactly what to say and do to appear to meet the standards they are hard to detect.

In my opinion the most likely to be classed as "fit" are those who are genuinely ill and inacapacitated but do not know how to play the system.

lab
27-May-10, 14:08
Not sure where the idea that if you recieve incapacity benefit gives you entitlement to free housing, dental care, prescriptions,ect. My sister worked for 22 years before getting too sick to work her stamps enabled her to get incapacity, however because this is income based due to her national insurance contributions she has to pay full rent all prescriptions and dental care, she also has a free? motobility car which costs her £68 pounds a week deducted from her mobility benefit. OH not complaining about the injustice of it all just saying because someone is on benefits does not automaticaly make them a scrounger.

Thumper
27-May-10, 14:13
Its always the same,there will always be those who play the system and yet agin they will be the ones who come out of this with their money intact and those that do deserve it will be made to feel like scroungers! A had an accident almost 4 years ago and SHOULD have been put on incapacity benefit,when did they tell me that?Hmmnn let me see about 5 months ago-by which time they said there wasnt much point giving me it as I should be back to full health after my operation(still not tho!) Now the point there is the DWP knew about my accident,knew i couldnt take on work because of the injury and then still didnt tell me I was entitled to it,but hounded me about when I would be fit enough to look for employment!x

Bazeye
27-May-10, 15:08
Just as Im typing this, looking out the window, a neighbour of mine on incapacity benefit with a "bad back" is just loading his golf clubs into the boot of his free car. And no, i havent told the DSS, but have been tempted to on many occasions especially when moneys tight.[disgust]

horseman
27-May-10, 15:10
What an attitude! [disgust]
What in the name of creation are you on about,my kids have scored from the state---an you have a problem with that------

squidge
27-May-10, 15:16
thumper appeal appeal appeal!!!!!

I had to claim ESA when i had my baby for a variety of reasons, I then claimed it in November when i had my appendix out. Now, entitled or not is one thing and was sorted out eventually, but the service from DWP in Clydebank was APPALLING. On one occasion i had a question and phoned on the wednesday to get an answer. I was told someone would phone me back, no one did. I phoned on the Thursday and Friday to be given the same answer with the same result. On the Friday I called back again and eventually someone phoned me back only to tell me one thing and then have it contradicted by a letter on the monday. I had to phone again and guess what - someone will phone you back and they never did. I also had an operator hang up on meon the Friday. Now fine if i had been abusive but i wasnt - no swearing, no rudeness just an expression of my exasperation with the department and click - hung up. I began to feel as though i was being told someone would phone me back just to shut me up. I accept they are busy and probably short staffed but I understand the system and am fairly sympathetic to people working for DWP.

If you contrast that with the service from the CSA with whom i have had dealings this year too they are like chalk and cheese, Every time I phoned the CSA they were helpful and supportive and they always returned calls when they said they would.

I know probably more than most that the local DWP staff are hard working and try their best on a local level but for goodness sake - if this is the best service they can give to claimants by phone god help them when the Tory cuts in public services arrive.

rs 2k
27-May-10, 15:38
This is a subject that gets me really mad!!!!

I was working and i had to give up work due to a bad back, can't stand for ages it gets sore, can't sit too long it gets sore, i had tests done (ESR test) and it was high, so i went to sign on (just to get some money) couldn't coz i haven't paid enough stamps, got sick notes coz of my back and tried incapacity benefit, they even had me at the job centre doc and he signed me off for a year, but can't get incapacity benefit either coz i haven't paid enough stamps,they said the only way i can claim is if i work full time for 2 years,[lol], how can i do that when the doc said i am not fit for work, so i thought well doc has signed me off not fit for work can't get money so i will try for disability,plenty people get it and nothing wrong with them, filled in all the forms waited and 6 weeks or so later got a letter back saying NO, and the reason being is coz i don't need help to turn over in my bed at night [lol] what a load of rubbish!!!!

My back is fine when i lie down,its the only way to get relief, so, what job could i get that i can lie on my back all day [lol]

I have now been out of work for 2 years and we have struggled!!

manloveswife
27-May-10, 16:13
Just as Im typing this, looking out the window, a neighbour of mine on incapacity benefit with a "bad back" is just loading his golf clubs into the boot of his free car. And no, i havent told the DSS, but have been tempted to on many occasions especially when moneys tight.[disgust]

The thing is Bazeye, he does not get a free car because he is on incapacity benefit, he can only get a car from mobility benefit so I think must be claiming disability also.

Anyone on incapacity is purely getting a smallish living subsidy because they are unable to work, this does not "entitle" them to, or mean they get a car, a house, dentist, prescriptions or any other help.

I think the problem is a lot of people confuse the two, and immediately assume anyone on incapacity is getting the whole shebang.

Did you also know, that stay at home mothers, and very low earners whose NI is "protected" will not qualify for incapacity should they need it, no one tells them that when they are informed they do not need to make an NI payment. the "protected" NI is just for pension, so those raising children full time need to be aware of this.

NickInTheNorth
27-May-10, 16:20
...

into the boot of his free car...



So what free car scheme is this? To my knowledge there are no "free car" schemes.

Would it be a motabilty scheme car?

If so check the website and see just how much these "free cars" cost the users...

Bazeye
27-May-10, 17:25
The thing is Bazeye, he does not get a free car because he is on incapacity benefit, he can only get a car from mobility benefit so I think must be claiming disability also.

Anyone on incapacity is purely getting a smallish living subsidy because they are unable to work, this does not "entitle" them to, or mean they get a car, a house, dentist, prescriptions or any other help.

I think the problem is a lot of people confuse the two, and immediately assume anyone on incapacity is getting the whole shebang.

I dont know what its called, because, unfortunately for me Ive worked most of my life so have never claimed it. He does however get a new car every couple of years. The main point I was trying to make was him off to play Golf while claiming he has a "bad back".

manloveswife
27-May-10, 17:54
I dont know what its called, because, unfortunately for me Ive worked most of my life so have never claimed it. He does however get a new car every couple of years. The main point I was trying to make was him off to play Golf while claiming he has a "bad back".

There is little doubt that there are people milking the system, and those that do know everything that can be claimed for. I think the point that needs to be made is there is a lot of misconception about benefits. Too many people assume that anyone on incapacity is getting a free ride, regardless of whether it is deserved or not. Most are getting very little.

I left school at 16 and straight to work, paid my tax and NI for a quarter of a century, never had above a few of weeks off work, once with bronchitis (work related), once with chicken pox, another time when I got a wee bit smashed up in a works van when broadsided by a pickup at 60 mph, the day I got made redundant I went to work for myself (still paying tax and NI), nothing makes me angrier than a false claimant, but lets not be assuming people on incapacity are getting a free lunch. It is just one part of many components that people may be eligible for.

It is those that play the system that need condeming, but unfortunately the system tends to let those sort get away with it. I however do know what its called, it pays to know the system, after your lifetime at work what happens when you have a heart attack, what happens should you suffer an industrial disease, what happens when you find you can not work ? You are not going to just dissapear, and unless you know whats what yourself its unlikely the people running the system are going to tell you.

My wife is 36 years old, has had several major surgeries, could not go back to work if she wanted to, wasted muscles from surgery leading to bones of the spine rubbing each other due to curvature, adhesions all over her insides, awaiting further surgery due to weakened muscles causing other things to go wrong, physio at raigmore once a month for months / years to come. SHE gets incapacity, thats a payment each week, far below a wage and does not come close to making up the hours of work I lose to care for and help her, she does not get a car, or a badge, nor any other form of benefit, nor does she want it, we are "entitled" to free school meals for the kids due to my low earnings but I'd rather go hungry myself than take that sort of charity.

As you say your neighbour may be pants, and that is what is wrong with the system, but the system will likely continue to help those the most that know how to play it, whilst forsaking many who deserve help.

series2A
27-May-10, 18:17
I saw some of the program last night the woman who was classed as unfit to work and was dismissed from her work, she went on to sign on was sent to the same company for a medical that said she was unfit to work who then said she WAS fit to work so she wasn't allowed to claim benefits, what a con.

manloveswife
27-May-10, 18:54
I saw some of the program last night the woman who was classed as unfit to work and was dismissed from her work, she went on to sign on was sent to the same company for a medical that said she was unfit to work who then said she WAS fit to work so she wasn't allowed to claim benefits, what a con.

And there in lies the rub, we can argue all we like about free cars and benefits, but the problem is in a system that does its best to throw deserving cases to the lions.

Lets not forget that the whole thing is in such a mess because the benefits agencies were actively encouraging certain work shy types onto incapacity to show unemployment figures in a better light. This was followed by an unwillingness to upset this section of society as they were likely to vote for said goverment whilst all went their way.

So now it is in a mess, and to sort it out they will do their best to put anyone out of the system, whether they deserve it or not, and spend a massive sum of money to do it, but never mind it will be popular with another sector of voters. As I have said before, I believe those most likely to survive these changes unafected are those who have played the system up to now, those that are practised in swinging the lead.

Those who find themselves in a system through necessity and do not have the same low ethics are the ones least likely to survive these tactics, the others will turn up in leg braces, neck braces, on crutches and run laughing down the street after the assesment anyway.

NickInTheNorth
27-May-10, 19:31
Lets not forget that the whole thing is in such a mess because the benefits agencies were actively encouraging certain work shy types onto incapacity to show unemployment figures in a better light. This was followed by an unwillingness to upset this section of society as they were likely to vote for said goverment whilst all went their way.



This looks like a dig at the last labour government, You may care to check the statistics, from memory the real hike in incapacity benefit was under the tories, not the natural party to gain support from the recipients of any benefits. ;)

catran
27-May-10, 20:04
Just as Im typing this, looking out the window, a neighbour of mine on incapacity benefit with a "bad back" is just loading his golf clubs into the boot of his free car. And no, i havent told the DSS, but have been tempted to on many occasions especially when moneys tight.[disgust]

Oh yes, I know the feeling............the "bad back brigade", mobility car, crutches when shopping LOL but could paint all outside the house, off course the back so that no one would see them. I know three to four of those that are not entitled one B-----penny, however what can one do.......They should have mobility car printed on the cars........

What can a GP do, not a lot should they miss something they would be sued....its terribly sad, invalidity and suing being the name of the game.

Bazeye
27-May-10, 20:07
Whatever its called to hide the true unemployment figures, the fact of the matter is that one in six people of working age are not working.

manloveswife
27-May-10, 20:47
This looks like a dig at the last labour government, You may care to check the statistics, from memory the real hike in incapacity benefit was under the tories, not the natural party to gain support from the recipients of any benefits. ;)


Voted Labour all my life Nick, even this time round though God knows why, You are right though, the Tories started it, but it looks to me like New labour let it continue, but then I never could really tell the difference between the Tories and New Labour in a lot of areas. :(The last true Labour politician may just have gone with Mr Foot.

manloveswife
27-May-10, 20:55
Whatever its called to hide the true unemployment figures, the fact of the matter is that one in six people of working age are not working.


Bazeye, just noticed your location, lovely spot, I worked on a couple of railway viaducts out that way. I'd imagine you see a few too many lead swingers out there since the yards went down.

I was always a big fan of nationalisation, kept a lot in work albeit on low wages who otherwise ended up as one of those six, industry mayhave been subsidised but it created jobs and kept the economy going, just look at places like Wigan now the pits and mills are gone. With it comes a sub culture to who claiming benefits is a career choice, I used to live next door to a job centre in Lancs, and had the pleasure of watching them swilling their Special Brew on the way to sign on. I'm all for sorting those out believe me, but all too often they are the ones who get away with it.

Bazeye
27-May-10, 21:21
Bazeye, just noticed your location, lovely spot, I worked on a couple of railway viaducts out that way. I'd imagine you see a few too many lead swingers out there since the yards went down. I used to live next door to a job centre in Lancs, and had the pleasure of watching them swilling their Special Brew on the way to sign on. I'm all for sorting those out believe me, but all too often they are the ones who get away with it.
Seems theyve been taught by their parents what they can and what they cant claim for and know the system inside out, whereas someone who suddenly finds themselves out of work after working most of their lives dont know what they can and cant claim for and theyre sure as hell not told.

manloveswife
27-May-10, 21:24
Seems theyve been taught by their parents what they can and what they cant claim for and know the system inside out, whereas someone who suddenly finds themselves out of work after working most of their lives dont know what they can and cant claim for and theyre sure as hell not told.


That, is about spot on.

catran
27-May-10, 22:55
That, is about spot on.

Yes one who falls by the wayside is certainly not told about what they can claim. However, fortunately I am not in that position, but..... I know loads have fleeced the system and it upsets me to think thats where my hard earned taxes are going..... certainly not to a good home or is it??????

50 year old female===Decides fed up ,better half has gone astray, so stop working, sore back nought wrong with the person good actor Social pays the mortgage on a 4 bedroom bungalow in a desirable area, person boast about their latest car ( should have mobility written on it) Twelve years on decides need to keep warm, new boiler, radiators, ect., with the compliments of the government cAUSE SHE HAS TWo CRUTCHES WHEN IN PUBLIC PLACES. nEW WINDOWS , nOT Sinclairs or Norfrost but Everest well is not life good in the disability Sector???????????Hard work getting there but All a farce and yet those that need things do not get them. Time the government sorted all the malingerers and spongers......Thats ony oen instance and I know of other three that are miling it........Gets me mad when those that really need help[ are not getting it.





.



yjem all getting new central heating i

squidge
27-May-10, 23:14
If you suspect someone is cheating the system then report it - Why do you not? If we agree that getting something because you are "pretending" to be ill is wrong and if we are prepared to complain and slag off the said "scroungers" or "cheats" here or in the pub or at work but then say we arent prepared to report it then we are silently condoning it. You should either stand up and be counted or put up and shut up.

A word of warning though - i have said this before and I will say it again... You dont KNOW what people are claiming or why they are claiming. You only know what you have heard or been told. Quite often people on a long term benefit may play the "Ach its money for nothing" card when its actually a really big issue and shameful for them, I have seen that time and time again. Also you might think so and so down the road is off with a bad back when actually his bad back is caused by hepatitis C which he got from an infected blood transfusion and there are many other problems he has as well - the golf might be on a good day...

Boozeburglar
28-May-10, 01:38
I am sick.

Nobody is paying me for it yet.

Though I am paying for it already.

Crackeday
28-May-10, 05:09
What in the name of creation are you on about,my kids have scored from the state---an you have a problem with that------
The point is your kids havent scored from the state, they have scored from tax payers NOT the state.
Thats where people get confused, some think its ok to milk the system for what its worth wheras those that REALLY do need it cant get it because money is tight due to wasters who are too lazy and want to milk the "state" where in fact is people like me and the other few million tax payers who have to pay for it!!
Maybe if the spongers didnt expect everything on a plate for them then there may be more money for the likes of the NHS? and genuine people who need it.
The welfare state is a fantastic idea its just a shame that some see fit to abuse it.:(

_Ju_
28-May-10, 07:26
Dunno how some of you see it?,but my daughter an son have both copped for a car free gratis from the state! An I am well chuffed at it.I have worked many many years to put that oppurtunity there,an all power to other young uns 'who have enough spunk to ride the system!!!!!:D

The "System" is there for those who really need it, but thanks to those who "ride the system" (like your children, apparently, though I would take your words as an inflamatory statement, to rile people on here and not a statement of fact), the "system" will colapse for those who really need it in the future.

Puzzled
28-May-10, 09:34
The point is your kids havent scored from the state, they have scored from tax payers NOT the state.
Thats where people get confused, some think its ok to milk the system for what its worth wheras those that REALLY do need it cant get it because money is tight due to wasters who are too lazy and want to milk the "state" where in fact is people like me and the other few million tax payers who have to pay for it!!
Maybe if the spongers didnt expect everything on a plate for them then there may be more money for the likes of the NHS? and genuine people who need it.
The welfare state is a fantastic idea its just a shame that some see fit to abuse it.:(

Well said - totally agree with you - makes me .:mad: that so many get away with it.

sandyr1
28-May-10, 14:16
[quote=manloveswife;713176]The thing is Bazeye, he does not get a free car because he is on incapacity benefit, he can only get a car from mobility benefit so I think must be claiming disability also.


Am trying to figure this out...
Its still a free car whatever its called. When I heard about these 'perks' I couldn't believe it..Have you any idea how fortunate or whatever its called, you people are.....

Boozeburglar
28-May-10, 14:38
Just as Im typing this, looking out the window, a neighbour of mine on incapacity benefit with a "bad back" is just loading his golf clubs into the boot of his free car. And no, i havent told the DSS, but have been tempted to on many occasions especially when moneys tight.[disgust]

Why don't you blackmail him?

sandyr1
28-May-10, 15:17
Why don't you blackmail him?

Thats about all that can be done......very good......

And...One evening I was in the Grocery Store and a couple who were in front of me had purchased all kinds of Dog food and cigarettes. I saw they paid with a Welfare cheque worth approx $400. They were then given several hundred $'s change( against the rules) and went to the Liquor Store and bought all kinds of booze.
So as I had noted their name and address from the cheque I contacted the Dept of Social Services and was told no action could be taken, due to 'Privacy' issues.......Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...happens all over!

rainbow
28-May-10, 16:47
It can be very frustrating to see people on benefits abuse the system, and unfortunately the 'spongers' are probably in the minority and give the majority a bad name. But I am fed up of seeing several people on benefits due to having a 'bad back', and you should see them at bowls - nothing worng with their backs then!! Also the people who use the motorised wheelchair in Tescos, have a motability vehicle and are seen cycling for miles and doing hard manual labour at their house! It is so easy to get a sick line from the doctor for stress or depression (doctors I believe just sign it due to fear of being sued or lack of time per patient) - all you need to do is go into the doctors and burst into tears, or as I have heard from others who are quite open about this is wet yourself in the surgery - works a treat!!!!
Oh I can feel my blood pressure rising - maybe I should go and get a sick line now??????

manloveswife
28-May-10, 17:51
[quote=manloveswife;713176]The thing is Bazeye, he does not get a free car because he is on incapacity benefit, he can only get a car from mobility benefit so I think must be claiming disability also.


Am trying to figure this out...
Its still a free car whatever its called. When I heard about these 'perks' I couldn't believe it..Have you any idea how fortunate or whatever its called, you people are.....


Hi Sandy, the point trying to be made is the thread is about a benefit called incapacity benefit, and a program dealing with the goverments aim to reasess anyone on it.

First off, Incapacity benefit does not get you a car, in fact does not get you much. The point is there is a new assesment in place that is being run purely to get people off the benefit. This has resulted in people being wrongly declared fit for work, including one woman who had terminal lung cancer being declared fit to return to work within 3 months, she died within five months.

Personally I do not see your problem with a benefit system, the problem is in abuse and that means from either side. You may pay a seperate policy to cover you if you become sick, we pay a seperate fund called National Insurance, which covers pensions etc. This is what should cover the benefits.

Tax and NI cover the whole range from Health care through to pensions, and is gathered from the British public, so everyone supposedly is looked after when it is required from cradle to grave as it was first envisioned. The problem is when people cheat the system.

Personally my wife could have taken thousands from the Health Service who failed to provide her with proper care, who botched surgery leaving bits behind they should have taken, who denied having done so for as long as they could, who failed to advise her that the operations would lead to other problems. She didn't, so should there be a problem expecting the system to help, the same system funded by the British taxpayer.

The benefit system is not free, it is paid for by the people, and if used properly should not be seen as a perk. If on your side of the pond you pay for health insurance to cover your care, is that a perk?

manloveswife
28-May-10, 18:04
On another note of benefits and perks, just look at the elderly, should they be denied care or pensions after all the years they have worked.

We have just watched our old Granny in her eighties, who along with Grandad worked hard and invested well, she has had to spend the proceeds of her home, along with the ninety thousand she had saved from investments on the required nursing care before she could get any help to her care. If she had been a waster and had no money she would have got it all for free, there is little of the welfare system in Britain that can be considered a free lunch, the problem lies in that some people abuse it, that is the only problem with what would otherwise be a workable sustainable system.

If we take Sandy's line on it, we might as well go back a hundred years, die of lots of diseases, go into the workhouse, and doff our caps to the great industrial Capatilists whilst they have our young children ripped to pieces whilst cleaning the cotton waste from the running machines.

Going off now to sing a verse of the Red Flag

sandyr1
30-May-10, 13:20
On another note of benefits and perks, just look at the elderly, should they be denied care or pensions after all the years they have worked.

We have just watched our old Granny in her eighties, who along with Grandad worked hard and invested well, she has had to spend the proceeds of her home, along with the ninety thousand she had saved from investments on the required nursing care before she could get any help to her care. If she had been a waster and had no money she would have got it all for free, there is little of the welfare system in Britain that can be considered a free lunch, the problem lies in that some people abuse it, that is the only problem with what would otherwise be a workable sustainable system.

If we take Sandy's line on it, we might as well go back a hundred years, die of lots of diseases, go into the workhouse, and doff our caps to the great industrial Capatilists whilst they have our young children ripped to pieces whilst cleaning the cotton waste from the running machines.

Going off now to sing a verse of the Red Flag

Tks for the explanation. Am not taking this lightly...just amazed that a system can afford such....perhaps not luxuries....but benefits such as cars.
Yes that is the age old system....don't save etc., and the Gov't will give it free. I guess we just don't have these luxuries in North America....And I left Scotland in the late 60's..and don't remember same.

Shabbychic
30-May-10, 13:51
Tks for the explanation. Am not taking this lightly...just amazed that a system can afford such....perhaps not luxuries....but benefits such as cars.
Yes that is the age old system....don't save etc., and the Gov't will give it free. I guess we just don't have these luxuries in North America....And I left Scotland in the late 60's..and don't remember same.

The government don't actually give out cars. Disability Living Allowance (DLA), is a benefit for children (with special needs), and adults who need someone to help look after them in the community. DLA comes in two parts, care and mobility components, which in turn comes in lower or higher rates.

The car part comes under the Motability Scheme, which is explained here (http://www.disabilityalliance.org/f17.htm). Not everybody who gets DLA qualifies for, or uses this option. :)

sandyr1
30-May-10, 14:55
Tks for info/site...and explanation.

Margaret M.
30-May-10, 15:37
And...One evening I was in the Grocery Store and a couple who were in front of me had purchased all kinds of Dog food and cigarettes. I saw they paid with a Welfare cheque worth approx $400. They were then given several hundred $'s change( against the rules) and went to the Liquor Store and bought all kinds of booze.
So as I had noted their name and address from the cheque I contacted the Dept of Social Services and was told no action could be taken, due to 'Privacy' issues.......Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...happens all over!

Dang, you were on a mission. Did they not notice you stalking them?

manloveswife
30-May-10, 17:08
Tks for the explanation. Am not taking this lightly...just amazed that a system can afford such....perhaps not luxuries....but benefits such as cars.
Yes that is the age old system....don't save etc., and the Gov't will give it free. I guess we just don't have these luxuries in North America....And I left Scotland in the late 60's..and don't remember same.


There do seem to be a few luxuries for some, but again the problem is when the system is abused, if you take a look at the requirements (unfortunately I don't have the links), which I once looked into for the wife, I would think very few people really qualify for some of the disability or motability allowances.

When I looked at it, it really did seem that to get those benefits you had to be pretty much without arms and legs, or at least any real use of them, so we never took it any further.
I would think there is definately a fair proportion of people who have milked the system, and any system that weeds them out would be most welcome, that way the benefits can be provided to those that do need them without the major drain to the taxpayer.

The problem now, seems to be that there is an obvious need to cut numbers of claimants in all areas, however the goverment seems more focused on the target numbers than on protecting the vulnerable whilst weeding out the cheats.

The private agency doing assesments on the T.V program will declare a woman not fit to work so she can be finished from her job, then declare her fit for work with no points scored the following week when being assessed for incapacity (or ESA as it is now). Staff at the agency are also called in for a talking to if they do not meet the targets for declaring people fit.

I know some aspects of the benefits system seem quite luxurious but in reality those seem to have been set up for the very needy minority, and as such if unabused should be attainable without too much drain on the taxpayer, who in turn may find themselves thankful the system is in place one day.

You are also absolutely right about the save nothing the goverment will take care of it side of things, though there is probably little incentive to many when they know they will spend their life achievments at the rate of £700 a week for care once they get old, ( thats the cost being charged in England to the wifes old Grannie).

manloveswife
30-May-10, 17:16
BTW Sandy, you are in a gorgeous part of the world, I think the best 3 weeks I ever spent (when the kids were little and the wife could still work) where somewhere near you (though i know it is a BIG place.

We got a plane to Montreal (not to keen on that area though), and hired a car, drove out to near Ottawa and stayed just outside Renfrew at a little place called Calabogie.

Had a real blast driving the mountains in a Lincoln Continental, and even managed the drive to Niagra though I didn't like the Highway through Toronto, that was scary, Big wagons all around me with no safety bars below them, think I could have drove straight under one them without touching. I was actually pleased coming back through at rush hour as the traffic was only crawling.

sandyr1
31-May-10, 02:36
BTW Sandy, you are in a gorgeous part of the world, I think the best 3 weeks I ever spent (when the kids were little and the wife could still work) where somewhere near you (though i know it is a BIG place.

We got a plane to Montreal (not to keen on that area though), and hired a car, drove out to near Ottawa and stayed just outside Renfrew at a little place called Calabogie.

Had a real blast driving the mountains in a Lincoln Continental, and even managed the drive to Niagra though I didn't like the Highway through Toronto, that was scary, Big wagons all around me with no safety bars below them, think I could have drove straight under one them without touching. I was actually pleased coming back through at rush hour as the traffic was only crawling.

Yes I know of what you speak/ been here 39 years and love it. Was fortunate to travel with work, from the Mexican Border to Northern Canada. I live just outside Toronto/ my daughter lives near Renfrew/ and did you stay in the red places on the water in Calagogie?.....and you would have passed me by heading to Niagara. Highway 401 is the safest highway in all North America/ tractor (lorry) trailer units up to 85 feet, some carrying 85,000 litres of gas (Petrol), wood and anything you can care to name. And No Side Bars....
Now, 1.7 million cars, inc Excise Tax/Petrol, even some driving lessons, and electric wheelchairs/ golf carts were supplied since 1977...& paid from the Disability/ Mobility award.. Info sent by....shabbychick!! Now that's a fun name!!
So I shall give up on this as it is still alive and well. I guess I would have to agree, that Mobility is important, but those that scam the system should be ...........!

sandyr1
31-May-10, 02:48
Dang, you were on a mission. Did they not notice you stalking them?

Just doing my duty as a Citizen of this fine Country!!

Shabbychic
31-May-10, 03:02
....shabbychick!! Now that's a fun name!!

It's Shabbychic (shabby sheek) not Shabbychick. :D

sandyr1
31-May-10, 03:29
It's Shabbychic (shabby sheek) not Shabbychick. :D

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh/ So sorry aboot that! Sounds better.. I shall practice....

squidge
31-May-10, 17:48
It can be very frustrating to see people on benefits abuse the system, and unfortunately the 'spongers' are probably in the minority and give the majority a bad name. But I am fed up of seeing several people on benefits due to having a 'bad back', and you should see them at bowls - nothing worng with their backs then!! Also the people who use the motorised wheelchair in Tescos, have a motability vehicle and are seen cycling for miles and doing hard manual labour at their house! It is so easy to get a sick line from the doctor for stress or depression (doctors I believe just sign it due to fear of being sued or lack of time per patient) - all you need to do is go into the doctors and burst into tears, or as I have heard from others who are quite open about this is wet yourself in the surgery - works a treat!!!!
Oh I can feel my blood pressure rising - maybe I should go and get a sick line now??????

Nope you should report them - name address and information to
National Benefit Fraud Hotline (NFBH) on 0800 854 440. Lines are open between 7.00 am and 11.00 pm, seven days a week. It is free and confidential.

manloveswife
31-May-10, 21:55
As above, if you know someone is abusing the system then there is nothing wrong in reporting it.

Sandy, we stayed at the apartments onto the lake, Calabogie Lodge I think its called, the lake was still frozen when we arrived but just about thawed out on leaving. If your ever up that way, skim a few stones in the lake for me.

As a solution to the Motability problem, I would not mind seeing the reintroduction of something similar to the old Invacars which you will no doubt remember though as kids we had another non politically correct name for them. :(

http://www.virtualgaz.com/invacarpage.htm

If you need to get about, you will be greatful for anything practical, and I don't think too many system cheats would see them as desirable.

sandyr1
31-May-10, 22:32
Yes, yes. Memories..tks.
Calabogie Lodge... very nice.
Stayed there a couple of time whilst at the car racing......s

catran
04-Jun-10, 22:15
It can be very frustrating to see people on benefits abuse the system, and unfortunately the 'spongers' are probably in the minority and give the majority a bad name. But I am fed up of seeing several people on benefits due to having a 'bad back', and you should see them at bowls - nothing worng with their backs then!! Also the people who use the motorised wheelchair in Tescos, have a motability vehicle and are seen cycling for miles and doing hard manual labour at their house! It is so easy to get a sick line from the doctor for stress or depression (doctors I believe just sign it due to fear of being sued or lack of time per patient) - all you need to do is go into the doctors and burst into tears, or as I have heard from others who are quite open about this is wet yourself in the surgery - works a treat!!!!
Oh I can feel my blood pressure rising - maybe I should go and get a sick line now??????
A good idea and if you are clever you will do it before retirement age and before you pay off your mortgage on your nice bungalow as the state will pay that so that your children will hAVE A GOOD INHERITANCE ECT ECT and if you are stressed you get the four door car, ect ect and also can get a pet, they will pay the vet bills for your doggie or moggie. cANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW THEY GET CARS WHEN THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF WORKING AND THERE IS BUSES ABOUT.

Liz
04-Jun-10, 22:29
A good idea and if you are clever you will do it before retirement age and before you pay off your mortgage on your nice bungalow as the state will pay that so that your children will hAVE A GOOD INHERITANCE ECT ECT and if you are stressed you get the four door car, ect ect and also can get a pet, they will pay the vet bills for your doggie or moggie. cANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW THEY GET CARS WHEN THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF WORKING AND THERE IS BUSES ABOUT.

You've made your point so no need to shout.

I am sick to the back teeth of people thinking everyone on benefits are spongers and fraudsters.
God forbid that you should ever become sick or disabled.

I haven't been able to work for many years due to illness and it is not the cushy life everyone seems to think it is.
I don't live a life of luxury (far from it!) and it is not nice being in pain and feeling ill every flipping day![evil]

Before you start shouting at me I know you were using one person as an example but your reply to rainbow inferred that people just go on incapactiy benefit etc on a whim and to get their house improvements and a new car etc.

I do realise that there are those who abuse the system but the majority are genuine people who would love to work if they could and it is so hurtful to be classed as lazy and scroungers.

NickInTheNorth
04-Jun-10, 22:38
People really need to start getting their information from sources other than the torygraph and daily wail, NO ONE in the UK living on benefits has it easy and lives a life of luxury.

Liz
04-Jun-10, 22:45
People really need to start getting their information from sources other than the torygraph and daily wail, NO ONE in the UK living on benefits has it easy and lives a life of luxury.

Well said and totally agree with you.

If people receiving benefits are living a life of luxury then they definitely have another income.