View Full Version : Germany invading Russia in ww2
Intelligent people only pls.
why did hitler invade russia in the last world war? I watched a DVD on this recently and the whol,e episode seems odd. Perhaps it was for the Baku oil fields as one intelligent member has already suggested elsewhere?
Intelligent people only pls.
Don't be silly, this is the org after all.
Wasn't Hitler a meglamaniac (sp?) mad man? Didnt he just want countries because he wanted power and russia was big and he thought he could have it. I dont think Hitler had any ideas about limitations.
Sorry I cant be more intellectual about the answer but trying to apply our reasoning hich also has the benefit of hindsight to Hitler is pretty much a waste of time in my opinion. He invaded russia cos he wanted it. Nothing more complicated than that
Whitewater
24-May-10, 22:25
Intelligent people only pls.
why did hitler invade russia in the last world war? I watched a DVD on this recently and the whol,e episode seems odd. Perhaps it was for the Baku oil fields as one intelligent member has already suggested elsewhere?
Intelegent people in debates on the org at the moment are few and far between, all arguments and facts are copied from google. Hardly an original thought on the org at the present time.
sqidgey baby, you just might be right.
I usually see old Adolf down the pub on Fridays so I will get the sp on that one straight from the horses mouth later this week.
He is getting on a bit, said something about going to his holiday villa in Israel but I think the old goat was having me on.:roll:
Metalattakk
24-May-10, 22:34
why did hitler invade russia in the last world war?
The voices in his head told him to.
Why did you start this thread?
Amy-Winehouse
24-May-10, 22:44
Germany invaded Russia but it cost them, big time .
They didnt bank on the weather being so cold & not having enough resources coming to the front line virtually made the Nazis surrender, Im not sure how many were slaughtered in the battles in the East but it was a very high number, maybe touching a half a million ?
Anyhow Hitler would have to defeat Stalin to be the world power that he desired to be. The Germans were evil to their foes, raping the women, killing all the men, burning their homes & forced the Russians back & put Moscow under siege. The Russians defeated the Germans by enclosing them in Leningrad I think it was? & pushed on from there to bully them back to Germany .
Many Germans surrendered as they had no food , were starving & were killed & treated brutally by the Russians for the way the Nazis had treated their countrymen.
The Russian s advanced on Germany killing,looting, burning, raping anything & evrything in revenge for Hitlers armies misdemeanors in the Motherland & there was a huge reward for the russian soldier who brought the head of Adolph Hitler dead or alive.
Is this an ok reply for ye ?
Germany invaded Russia but it cost them, big time .
They didnt bank on the weather being so cold & not having enough resources coming to the front line virtually made the Nazis surrender, Im not sure how many were slaughtered in the battles in the East but it was a very high number, maybe touching a half a million ?
Anyhow Hitler would have to defeat Stalin to be the world power that he desired to be. The Germans were evil to their foes, raping the women, killing all the men, burning their homes & forced the Russians back & put Moscow under siege. The Russians defeated the Germans by enclosing them in Leningrad I think it was? & pushed on from there to bully them back to Germany .
Many Germans surrendered as they had no food , were starving & were killed & treated brutally by the Russians for the way the Nazis had treated their countrymen.
The Russian s advanced on Germany killing,looting, burning, raping anything & evrything in revenge for Hitlers armies misdemeanors in the Motherland & there was a huge reward for the russian soldier who brought the head of Adolph Hitler dead or alive.
Is this an ok reply for ye ?
yes. thank you. pleasantly polite. i'm off to bed now tho.
Intelligent people only pls.
Do you mean intelligent people or only people who share your point of view?
If you don't get the replies you seek will you close this thread down as you did this one earlier?
this topic has had many views and many replys. unfortunate that some replys have been posted by mentally sick people . it is very strange i have not experienced this type of behavior before. Fred how do put up with this cause i notice that you have been here much longer than the clowns?
Tubthumper displays defenate symptoms of paranoid schizo #(cant spell the rest). saying they know im someone called stavro and that they know who stavro is and thus they know me. but Tubthumper could not answer what stavros first name is! now all of a sudden they claim im stavros dad! and that they feel uneasy or something. Tubthumper you need to see a shrink. you have no right asking personmal stuff but just to save you haveing to take an extra pill tonite im not Stavro and im not Stavros dad.
friar tuck you claimed that i dislike Jews cause i rfeerenced Pat Buchanan. you have no idea of logic mate. and youre evidence that "all Jews are rothschilds" was given by you as me questioning whether hitler and churchill were bith rothschilds. are you on the same medication as youre bedfellow tubthumper by any chance?
there is no point in a forum that is ruined by some little gang (who i suspect are incomers rather than locals) but the reason for youre strange behaviour has me flumuxed. why are you so scared of a discussion on this topic? why are you so desperatre and paranoid?
i will close the thread so as not to upset youre strange and delicate natures.
Intelligent people only pls.
Originally Posted by pegasus http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=711789#post711789)
this topic has had many views and many replys. unfortunate that some replys have been posted by mentally sick people . it is very strange i have not experienced this type of behavior before. Fred how do put up with this cause i notice that you have been here much longer than the clowns?
Tubthumper displays defenate symptoms of paranoid schizo #(cant spell the rest). saying they know im someone called stavro and that they know who stavro is and thus they know me. but Tubthumper could not answer what stavros first name is! now all of a sudden they claim im stavros dad! and that they feel uneasy or something. Tubthumper you need to see a shrink. you have no right asking personmal stuff but just to save you haveing to take an extra pill tonite im not Stavro and im not Stavros dad.
friar tuck you claimed that i dislike Jews cause i rfeerenced Pat Buchanan. you have no idea of logic mate. and youre evidence that "all Jews are rothschilds" was given by you as me questioning whether hitler and churchill were bith rothschilds. are you on the same medication as youre bedfellow tubthumper by any chance?
there is no point in a forum that is ruined by some little gang (who i suspect are incomers rather than locals) but the reason for youre strange behaviour has me flumuxed. why are you so scared of a discussion on this topic? why are you so desperatre and paranoid?
i will close the thread so as not to upset youre strange and delicate natures.
Hi pot, I believe the black kettle is looking for you! [lol]
Do you mean intelligent people or only people who share your point of view?
If you don't get the replies you seek will you close this thread down as you did this one earlier?
I think Pegasus means Pegasus wants only a reasonable debate on the subject not people posting mass garbage, personal insults etc. just to disrupt the thread.
The fact that you think this Fred is not enough,
I'm not in the habit of posting garbage, personal insults here.
Do you have some sort of mandate to post on behalf of Pegasus?
Boozeburglar
25-May-10, 02:39
Yeah, they are one and the same.
Sock puppets.
Ewwwwwwwww.
northener
25-May-10, 07:00
As AW has already stated.
My opinion is the same. Hitler believed that the threat from Stalin would only grow as time went on. If Hitler got bogged down in the Western offensive, he would have been hard pushed to prevent the Russians from opening a second front. He knew Stalin would not tolerate a super power on his immediate border - especially one as militarily competent as the Third Riech. So he was in a catch-22: open the Eastern front under his control - or just sit there and wait for the Russians to attack, hardly the line Hitler would take.
I believe he also knew that the Russians would not be prepared for his Blitzkrieg method of warfare and that he would be able to roll up the Russians with incredible speed...in this he was absolutely right. The Soviets collapsed under the onslaught.
Oil probably played a part - but that is only one resource that would have been of use. Having a few million Untermenschen to man acquired Russian industry and resources must have been a big fat juicy temptation.
Mind you, I believe I'm one of those who Pegasus believes is not an 'intelligent person' - which says more about Pegasus' attitude than it does anyone elses......so I must be talking crap.
Not one of Peggy's intelligentsia I'm afraid so can't comment :(
It wasn't a good move, whatever the reasons.
Almost everything went Hitler's way in the invasion, yet by Christmas his forces in the USSR were (strategically) up that well-known creek.
John Little
25-May-10, 08:54
Friar Tuck says P might read the bits in Mein Kampf, published 1925 where Hitler speaks of Lebensraum - especially the bit where he talks about a rotten empire in the east where all we have to do is give one kick and the whole decaying structure will come crashing to the ground.
He could also google the Hossbach memorandum and examine Case Red.
But that may be too obvious and certainly not intelligent.
The fact that you think this Fred is not enough,
I'm not in the habit of posting garbage, personal insults here.
Do you have some sort of mandate to post on behalf of Pegasus?
Having had to close a thread myself due to the same gang using the same tactics to disrupt any intelligent debate gives me some insight.
You will notice the next post to yours was nothing but a personal attack on myself, a clique lie. How would you like it if instead of responding with a reasonable reply to you I just thought up derogatory lies to tell about you?
Intelligent people only pls.
why did hitler invade russia in the last world war? I watched a DVD on this recently and the whol,e episode seems odd. Perhaps it was for the Baku oil fields as one intelligent member has already suggested elsewhere?
"If I do not get the oil of Maikop and Grozny, then I must end this war."
Adolph Hitler, 23rd July 1942.
A modern army can not fight without oil. Germany's only source of natural oil was Romania and that was both limited and vulnerable.
Hitler could have managed without Russia's other resources, he could have managed without slave labour but without oil he faced certain defeat.
Plus Sir Henri Deterding, the head of Royal Dutch Shell till 1936, had been a Nazi supporter and personal friend of Hitler's. No doubt the company, which was the product of a merger between a Dutch and a British oil company, was due a reward for making the war possible.
Plus Sir Henri Deterding, the head of Royal Dutch Shell till 1936, had been a Nazi supporter and personal friend of Hitler's. No doubt the company, which was the product of a merger between a Dutch and a British oil company, was due a reward for making the war possible.
The first part of the post above was eminently sensible and believable but then the quoted part comes direct from a well known website run by the Donovans :
"John and Alfred Donovan are well known in UK/Hague. They perceive Shell played them and so have made it their mission to embarrass, belittle and criticize Shell, which they do quite well."
Seeing most of the .org seems to use tinterweb for their info here is another snippet on old Henri :
He was made an honorary KBE in 1920, ostensibly for service to Anglo-Dutch relations, but mainly for his work supplying Allies with petroleum during World War I.
Called the "Napoleon of Oil", Deterding was responsible for developing the tanker fleet that let Royal Dutch compete with the Shell company of Marcus Samuel. He led Royal Dutch to several major mergers and acquisitions, including a merger with Samuel's "Shell" Transport and Trading Company in 1907 and the purchase of Azerbaijan oil fields from the Rothschild family in 1911. In the last years of his life, Deterding became controversial when he became an admirer of the German Nazi party. In 1936, he discussed with them the sale of a year's oil reserves on credit; the next year, he was forced to resign from the company's board.
Sadly, Fred old bean, you tend to screw up perfectly sane arguments by using known fantasies to back up your own prejudices.
John Little
25-May-10, 11:07
"If I do not get the oil of Maikop and Grozny, then I must end this war."
Adolph Hitler, 23rd July 1942"
But not too believable Davie. Hitler attacked Russia on June 21 1941. The quote is from July 1942. He needed the Russian oil to finish the war he began in 1941. If he had not started that war then he would have not needed the oil.
The only nation he was still at war with at that point was us, and Russia was shipping him all the oil he wanted to buy. The last tanker train crossed the German borders after dark on June 20 1941.
The oil is not the reason he attacked Russia.
John Little
25-May-10, 11:24
Interesting about Deterding too;
"The House of Rothschild, through its various branches established in London, Paris and Vienna by the sons of Amschel Mayer8 (named "Rothschild" after the "red shield" sign on his house in the Frankfurt ghetto), financed:
• the Rockefeller oil empire in America;
• the emerging alliance (soon to be named Royal Dutch Shell) of the Dutch and English royal houses to take control over the oilfields in the Far East; and
• the Russian oilfield operations controlled by the Nobel family.
As always, the third player got mangled up in the tussle between the two stronger ones.9 After oil was discovered in the Persian Gulf region and the British secured control of it, the Nobel family was forced by a "no holds barred" price war between Rockefeller and Deterding to "sell out". In order to win this fight, Deterding teamed up with Lord Samuels of London, who had established the oil shipping industry.
While it would be too cumbersome to detail this epic struggle here, just one fact should make the attentive reader sit up: Josef Stalin spent his early political life as organiser of the Oil Workers Union in and around Baku!"
http://www.karenlyster.com/bigoil.html
Funny how the same names keep cropping up ain't it. There's those Rothschilds again!
"If I do not get the oil of Maikop and Grozny, then I must end this war."
Adolph Hitler, 23rd July 1942"
But not too believable Davie. Hitler attacked Russia on June 21 1941. The quote is from July 1942. He needed the Russian oil to finish the war he began in 1941. If he had not started that war then he would have not needed the oil.
The only nation he was still at war with at that point was us, and Russia was shipping him all the oil he wanted to buy. The last tanker train crossed the German borders after dark on June 20 1941.
The oil is not the reason he attacked Russia.
At the outbreak of the war, Germany’s stockpiles of fuel consisted of a total of 15 million barrels. The campaigns in Norway, Holland, Belgium, and France added another 5 million barrels in booty, and imports from the Soviet Union accounted for 4 million barrels in 1940 and 1.6 million barrels in the first half of 1941. Yet a High Command study in May of 1941 noted that with monthly military requirements for 7.25 million barrels and imports and home production of only 5.35 million barrels, German stocks would be exhausted by August 1941. The 26 percent shortfall could only be made up with petroleum from Russia. The need to provide the lacking 1.9 million barrels per month and the urgency to gain possession of the Russian oil fields in the Caucasus mountains, together with Ukrainian grain and Donets coal, were thus prime elements in the German decision to invade the Soviet Union in June 1941
From "The Role of Synthetic Fuel In World War II Germany" byDr. Peter W. Becker.
He quotes W. Tomberg. "Wehrwirtschaftliche Erkenntnisse von 5 Kriegsjahren," (November 1944), pp. 58, 61 as his source.
Russia supplied Germany with four million barrels a year as part of the 1939 peace treaty. In 1938 Germany used forty four million barrels.
Russia was not shipping him "all the oil he wanted to buy".
John Little
25-May-10, 12:01
Would that be the same Peter Becker who wrote this?
"As a highly developed industrial state, Germany was dependent even in peacetime on external sources for an adequate supply of oil. Even though Germany’s 1938 oil consumption of little more than 44 million barrels was considerably less than Great Britain’s 76 million barrels, Russia’s 183 million barrels, and the one billion barrels used by the United States, in wartime Germany’s needs for an adequate supply of liquid fuel would be absolutely essential for successful military operations on the ground and, even more so, in the air.1 For Germany, it was precisely the outbreak of the war in 1939 and the concurrent termination of overseas imports that most endangered its ability to conduct mobile warfare."
So Germany only consumed 44 million barrels in 1938.
In other words if he had not gone to war then he would not have needed the oil?
Maybe I should rephrase - all the oil he needed, provided he did not go to war.
Do you know what a circular argument is?
Would that be the same Peter Becker who wrote this?
"As a highly developed industrial state, Germany was dependent even in peacetime on external sources for an adequate supply of oil. Even though Germany’s 1938 oil consumption of little more than 44 million barrels was considerably less than Great Britain’s 76 million barrels, Russia’s 183 million barrels, and the one billion barrels used by the United States, in wartime Germany’s needs for an adequate supply of liquid fuel would be absolutely essential for successful military operations on the ground and, even more so, in the air.1 For Germany, it was precisely the outbreak of the war in 1939 and the concurrent termination of overseas imports that most endangered its ability to conduct mobile warfare."
So Germany only consumed 44 million barrels in 1938.
In other words if he had not gone to war then he would not have needed the oil?
Maybe I should rephrase - all the oil he needed, provided he did not go to war.
Do you know what a circular argument is?
Germany needed 44 million barrels a year whether they were at war of not. Russia did not supply them with one drop more than 4 million barrels a year, therefore Russia did not supply Hitler with all the oil he wanted.
Do you know what simple logic is?
John Little
25-May-10, 12:11
Oh yes - I do. Hitler wanted to buy 4 million barrels of oil from Russia, He needed this because Germany could buy all the oil she wanted on the world market. He could buy a few million from Rumania, a few million from the USA and a few million from the Middle East.
He wanted to buy 4 million from Russia.
They wanted his cash and access to German technology.
If Hitler had wanted more for his peacetime uses then they would have sold it to him.
But then he went to war. He could get no more oil from abroad so he needed Russia's. But he knew that anyway.
simples.
See?
Oh yes - I do. Hitler wanted to buy 4 million barrels of oil from Russia, He needed this because Germany could buy all the oil she wanted on the world market. He could buy a few million from Rumania, a few million from the USA and a few million from the Middle East.
He wanted to buy 4 million from Russia.
They wanted his cash and access to German technology.
If Hitler had wanted more for his peacetime uses then they would have sold it to him.
But then he went to war. He could get no more oil from abroad so he needed Russia's. But he knew that anyway.
simples.
See?
Germany certainly could not buy oil on the world markeyt - there was a worldwide boycott of Germany from the mid 30s. tho i agree that the usa was funding germany
Hitler must have known that he would need extra oil from somewhere if he was going to break the treaty with russia and invade. and the speed which he went towards Moscow he could have secured Baku first. Instead he went towards moscow and then stopped almost waiting for the winter to set in as sids pointed out. then he orders his army all over the place including stalingrad and Baku
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 12:42
... tho i agree that the usa was funding germany
I didn't know this, could you clarify please?
I didn't know this, could you clarify please?
quopte -
One of the most surprising sources of fundings came from American Wall Street Corporation interests who saw the Nazis not as the war criminals they became, but as European interests fighting communism. Their funding and business support however did facilitate the war effort of Hitler and the National Socialists. Some of the names might be surprising: George Bush's Grandfather, was a funder raising the Bush-Dulles (http://www.country-liberal-party.com/pages/Bush-Nazi-links.htm) controversy, Ford, who promoted Nazi views aided financially and other American Companies such Bayer may have funded partially the Concentration Camp medical experiments so infamous now.note2 Standard Oil held 94% of the shares in a German Company affiliated with I.G. Farben, the factory profitting most from slave labor at Auschwitz (http://www.shoaheducation.com/auschwitz.html), [and makers of Zyklon-B], and companies such as Ford and Mercedes-Benz, developed not only a massive 'vehicle' industry for Germany, including everything from volkswagens to tanks, but streamlining production with auto-industry technology. The truth is, the Third Reich had not only many supporters but fund-raisers who backed Hitler, through patterns which were well-known. Meetings between Ruhr Industrialists, and American 'Capitalists' and funders are well documented10: the Ruhr Industrialists helped put Hitler in power in 1933 and were formidable in arms and weaponry manufacturing. DeHomag, the German 'affiliate' or arm of the IBM corporation continued to do business with the Reich long after the war began and even after the U.S. entered the war in violation of the Trading With The Enemy Act of 1917 and 1933. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode12/usc_sec_12_00000095---a000-.html) Part of the problem with TWEA, is that while it is restrictive and allows executive power to stop US Businesses from trading with those whom we are at war with, it is also somewhat discretionary, including the language 'may' instead of must. note-TWEAMany others were involved and corporations and private sector contributors must be held accountable for what they knew. Since we now know that many of the companies were not just aware of the conditions including the Killing Centers, but were in fact using slave labor, materials and even more, corporate responsiblity has become even more of an issue in today's world and the etiology of genocide, since many of the same corporations or their progeny continue to conduct business in the same way today.
John Little
25-May-10, 12:51
Germany certainly could not buy oil on the world markeyt - there was a worldwide boycott of Germany from the mid 30s. tho i agree that the usa was funding germany
Hitler must have known that he would need extra oil from somewhere if he was going to break the treaty with russia and invade. and the speed which he went towards Moscow he could have secured Baku first. Instead he went towards moscow and then stopped almost waiting for the winter to set in as sids pointed out. then he orders his army all over the place including stalingrad and Baku
Oh I did not know that either. What was the cause of the boycott - and who organised and enforced it?
Yes - the USA did fund Hitler. Henry Ford in particular was very anti-semitic and invested a lot of money in German industry because he admired Hitler
And yes - if he did break the 20 year pact of friendship and trade signed in August 1939 he would need more oil. But only if he broke the pact.
The reason he invaded Russia may be summed up in one word.
Grossdeutschland.
He stopped outside Moscow to regroup before an attack on the capital. Army group centre was strung out along the roads back to Poland. The weather had plummetted to 40 degrees below freezing and the German's tanks would not start unless a fire was lit beneath them first; lorry axles snapped in the cold.
At this point they were hit by the Russian armies from Siberia - battle-hardened, victorious, and defending their capital. Also used to snow.
Oh I did not know that either. What was the cause of the boycott - and who organised and enforced it?
Yes - the USA did fund Hitler. Henry Ford in particular was very anti-semitic and invested a lot of money in German industry because he admired Hitler
And yes - if he did break the 20 year pact of friendship and trade signed in August 1939 he would need more oil. But only if he broke the pact.
The reason he invaded Russia may be summed up in one word.
Grossdeutschland.
He stopped outside Moscow to regroup before an attack on the capital. Army group centre was strung out along the roads back to Poland. The weather had plummetted to 40 degrees below freezing and the German's tanks would not start unless a fire was lit beneath them first; lorry axles snapped in the cold.
At this point they were hit by the Russian armies from Siberia - battle-hardened, victorious, and defending their capital. Also used to snow.
the cause of the boycott was that world jewry declared war on Germany.
youre account of Hitler pausing to regroup does not agree with the old newsreels i have recently watched. if Hitler had really wanted moscow he could and would have taken it
Green_not_greed
25-May-10, 13:05
The oil is not the reason he attacked Russia.
Nope, I heard that he'd run out of vodka.......
Hitler - here Goebals, pour me another large dram of the Stolichnaya
Goebals - there's none left. Goering's had the last of it.
Hitler - what about the Absolut Panzer?
Goebals - no he had that too.
Hitler - oh shitzen! Where's Stalin's supply train?
Goebals - its not arrived for the past 3 months
Hitler - that does it - we're invading Russia!
John Little
25-May-10, 13:42
the cause of the boycott was that world jewry declared war on Germany.
youre account of Hitler pausing to regroup does not agree with the old newsreels i have recently watched. if Hitler had really wanted moscow he could and would have taken it
Army group centre was 15 miles from Moscow centre. I assure they that they had halted to regroup and that the snow was the reason. If you look for the Winter Help programme organised by the Party at this time you will find that the Reich were supplying all the winter clothing they could to the troops for that very reason.
And the Siberian armies had arrived by then. I cannot remember clearly but I think it was General Friedrich von Mellenthin, whose autobiography I have somewhere, who described their impact as they attacked over the snow - using skis, snow-shoes, snow suits etc - which the Wehrmacht had not been equipped with. Only Jagers had that kit at this date.
World Jewry organised a boycott of oil to Germany?
Tell me more
Nope, I heard that he'd run out of vodka.......
Hitler - here Goebals, pour me another large dram of the Stolichnaya
Goebals - there's none left. Goering's had the last of it.
Hitler - what about the Absolut Panzer?
Goebals - no he had that too.
Hitler - oh shitzen! Where's Stalin's supply train?
Goebals - its not arrived for the past 3 months
Hitler - I'll have a whisky and skoda then.
Goebals - Don't be vague ask for Prague.
I didn't know this, could you clarify please?
When American troops invaded Germany they found the German troops were driving lorries powered by Ford and Chrysler engines and drinking Coca Cola.
...that's how it feels. Fred, did you use the phrase "muddy field"?
Goood choice of words
Reading this thread I have one word for you all STOP!!!!
Or at the very least. "PAUSE!"
Thank you.
Now, how many of you have studied history at university level?
Deafening silence!
Now are you all quiet and sitting comfortably?
Good.
Have you turned off the Wicopedia?
Better and better.
Then Auntie Rich can begin.
What separates history from the social sciences is it's method of operation. A historical explanation always involves narrative. I believe it is unique in this. Pause for Book No 1 - Doing History by J.H. Hexter.
Read this and learn - or in some of your cases "REPENT"
Now of course we cannot make up any silly story, we have to watch what manner of exploratory yarn we are spinning.
So to keep the historian delivering the straight goods one has to go in search of the evidence. That of course means hitting the archives. It involves study and interpretation - activities that are not much in evidence in the muddy fields of the ORG.
Above all the writing of history by professionaly trained historians certified by the historians' gulid - is the difference between heat and light. And that's what we are after LIGHT!
I will return to this later. (I am beginning to enjoy myself)
In the meantime, John Little stop being nasty to Fred, you will make him cry. Fred, stop setting off rockets - never forget one man's rocket is another man's damp squib.
Thank you all. Now go away quietly to read this week's TLS.
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 16:43
the cause of the boycott was that world jewry declared war on Germany.
Is this phrase, and I ask purely in the spirit of non-confrontational interest, anti-semitic or pure paranoia? Or some other thing which I have not yet encountered, being unintelligent?
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 16:45
When American troops invaded Germany they found the German troops were driving lorries powered by Ford and Chrysler engines and drinking Coca Cola.
I didn't know that either. It's amazing the facts you can find out on here.
Hello, history class!
Today's difficult word is PSYCHOPATH.
First of all we need a good source: the DSM-IV list of symptoms used by psychiatrists will fill the bill.
Here is the current, working, definition.
Psychopaths cannot be understood in terms of antisocial rearing or development. They are simpley morally depraved individuals who represent the "monsters" in our society. They are unstoppable and untreatable predators whose violence is unplanned, purposful and emotionless. The violence continues until it reaches a plateau at age 50 or so and then tapers off."
So lets see how Mr. Hitler fares under this strenuous definition.
http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/antisocial_sociopath_psychopath.html
The first thing the historian must do when dealing with such a resonant word as PSYCHOPATH is to find a source and the ever fluctuating (who's in who's out)? DSM IV will have to do.
DSM IV will be revamped as DMV V sometine in May 2013
But my previous post will give you the idea.
SO here's how Hitler looks on the couch.
This comes from the DISTEMPERED PSYCHOPATH.
In this diagnosis Hitler's carpet chewing rages fits in nicely.
He was famous for his carpet chewing rages. Or was that British propaganda?
Distempered psychopaths are diagnosed in part by their overwhelming sexual drive. Hitler exhibited a very low sex drive.
Drug addiction, kleptomania and pedophilia are diagnostic. Hitler was none of these three things.
But here's where the historian must tread with care. Dr. Morel, Hitler's private physician had the Furher so pumped with drugs he must have rattled when he walked. Maybe these drugs tamped down his kleptomania - who knows. "Here comes the Feuher for dinner - lock up the silver!" could have been the cry of Housefraus in the Reich.
Now when confronted with conflicting evidence like this, or evidence that can be used one way or the other a vital factor comes into play:
JUDGEMENT
Is this phrase, and I ask purely in the spirit of non-confrontational interest, anti-semitic or pure paranoia? Or some other thing which I have not yet encountered, being unintelligent?
Pegasus may be referring to the Jewish boycott of German goods in 1933 which some British newspapers said was a declaration of war on Germany by the world's Jews.
Or maybe the reference is to the actual declaration of war made by the leader of the Zionist party in the London Times in September 1939 in which he declared that every Jew in the world would support Britain in the war against Germany.
John Little
25-May-10, 18:48
[quote=pegasus;712003]Germany certainly could not buy oil on the world markeyt - there was a worldwide boycott of Germany from the mid 30s.
"World Jewry organised a boycott of oil to Germany?"
But it's these bits I want to know more about.
there was a huge reward for the russian soldier who brought the head of Adolph Hitler dead or alive.
You might struggle to keep a head alive...lol.
Honestly, I didn't read the thread. Being German I am sick and tired of talking about Hitler. Why does nobody ever talk about the Germans who were hiding jewish people from the nazis, risking their lives, like my great grandma...
Hitler was a tyrant and not enough people where willing to questioned his authority!
The Drunken Duck
25-May-10, 19:01
You might struggle to keep a head alive...lol.
Honestly, I didn't read the thread. Being German I am sick and tired of talking about Hitler. Why does nobody ever talk about the Germans who were hiding jewish people from the nazis, risking their lives, like my great grandma...
Some people spent some time living in Germany and are well aware, just like they know that Germans DO have a sense of humour. There was a German exchange pilot with us at Wildenrath whose grandfathers brother was executed for helping Jews in the early years if the war, he had some quite harrowing tales to tell about ordinary Germans who went against the Nazi party line.
EDIT .. Had to look up the details in an old notebook but a lot of Germans did stand up and be counted, even the military. One Me-109 unit in the Battle of Britian (Jagd Geschwader 53, JG53) was ordered by Goering to remove its Ace of Spades marking and paint a red band of shame round the noses of the aircraft. The Commanding Officer had taken a Girlfriend who was part Jewish. Goering punished all the Pilots for not informing on their CO by removing their cherished emblem. When he was relieved Goering told the Pilots they could repaint their marking on the aircraft and remove the red band, this they did. But they also removed the Swastika from the tails as a sign of defiance against the Nazi Party, They admired and respected their former CO and his chosen partner.
There is a very good reason why German people will shout for another til to be opened when there is more than 3 queuing in front of them whilst British people will all queue at the same till and have to be told to go to another til.
I noticed Tesco Thurso has somebody standing to spread out customers to different tills so they don't all queue at the same one...
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 19:20
I remember an old German boy that drank in our local bar in Menden, he'd been in the Wehrmacht, taken prisoner by the Russians and been effectively a slave labourer in Siberian (uranium?) mines until 1968. His health was wrecked and he hated the Russians. I'm not surprised. But remember that in 1945 they hated him too. And they wanted vengeance.
Stefan, it's rubbish that all every Brit ever dribbles about is the war. Intolerance and bigotry are terrible things. Sometimes (as in the case of some of our colleagues on here) they scream and gibber about the injustice of post-war politics, while screaming and gibbering about the threat from an invisible enemy.:(
Intolerance and bigotry are terrible things.
They are indeed.
When someone is persecuted, not for what they say or do but for who they are, or even who their father is, it is a terrible thing indeed.
John Little
25-May-10, 19:35
I agree Fred. What was done to the Jews was shocking.
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 19:40
They are indeed. When someone is persecuted, not for what they say or do but for who they are, or even who their father is, it is a terrible thing indeed.
Even if their father was Adolf Hitler, and they themself professed to supporting the same rabid lunatic, nasty ideals? Still terrible?
Sharpen up Fred, you know perfectly well what (and who) I'm on about, and if you must continue to support these losers and their mad beliefs I think even less of you (and that's saying something!)
Even if their father was Adolf Hitler, and they themself professed to supporting the same rabid lunatic, nasty ideals? Still terrible?
Sharpen up Fred, you know perfectly well what (and who) I'm on about, and if you must continue to support these losers and their mad beliefs I think even less of you (and that's saying something!)
So it's only intolerance and bigotry when it is others doing it then.
I don't know that Adolph Hitler had a son. He had a nephew who lived in Liverpool. Should he have been persecuted for being Hitler's nephew?
John Little
25-May-10, 19:50
Was that Bridget Hitler? I mean - was she the Mother of Billy?
Bill Fernie
25-May-10, 19:50
Intelligent people only pls.
why did hitler invade russia in the last world war? I watched a DVD on this recently and the whol,e episode seems odd. Perhaps it was for the Baku oil fields as one intelligent member has already suggested elsewhere?
The oil question is interesting but only part of a much larger picture. Some mention of the oil issue is to be found in an article at http://www.2worldwar2.com/russia.htm
But another intersting issue is even before this as one thing leads to another and for me the question of reparations following the first world war and the Weimar Republic offer the chance for huge numbers of observations as to why Germany invaded Russia. For Reparations see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations
For Wiemar Republic see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic
Apologies for making references and running but I read a lot of thick books about this many years ago and dont have time right now to debate the main issue of why German invaded Russia but hope my references provide some useful information on the reasons.
Each twist in history leads to a path that could well have been different asking "what if"
In many respects the facts about Russian and German relations in the period between the wars is still being established as more facts come out so there may yet be twists in this part of history. Yes even history is continually being rewritten. It pays to keep an open mind even when reading history and be prepared for revisions over your life.
The oil question is certainly an interesting one but it leads to many other questions not least about the truth of the history of the period and is all the more valid for that I think.
Tubthumper
25-May-10, 19:58
A sound response Bill. Thanks for that, nice to hear from you 'live' so to speak.
And Fred - if the son was actively following in the footsteps of his horrible father, I would certainly expect him to be beaten with the same brush. As I would any of his acolytes.
However if he was innocent of any wrongdoing, regardless of his name, family history, religious beliefs or place/ culture of birth, I would expect him to be left to live his life unharrassed, and be supported like any other person.
Unlike some, who have unreasoning hatred & animosity for sections of humanity, and are not afraid to publish websites or post on public fora about it.
If the tinfoil cap fits, wear it, say I! :cool:
"why did Hitler invade Russia?" good question. He should have formed the EEC back then, and could have ruled the whole of europe (as is the case now)without a shot being fired.
Yoda the flump
25-May-10, 20:18
The oil question is really a red herring.
The Nazi's were ideologically a racist regime and as has already been mentioned Mein Kampf gives Hitlers thinking on the eastern europeans. The Nazi/Soviet conflict was always going to happen, both sides realised that.
The Nazi's took their chances and invaded whilst the Russians were weak. Stalin had purged the Red Army of many of its senior officers and although on paper they were the largest and best equipped army in the world, they were hamstrung by inexperienced commanders.
As the Nazi forces rolled across the border Stalin refused to believe it, and indeed the Nazi's had many successes in the initial months.
The Nazi's had however not counted on two things 1) the resiliance of the ordinary Russian soldier and the Russian weather.
As the summer turned to autumn the landscape and roads turned into a sea of mud and this effectively stopped the advance. When the winter came, the ground froze and the push for Moscow started again.
By this time, Japan had signed a non agression treaty with Stalin and units from Siberia could be transferred west. This and the extreme cold causing the Nazi equipment to malfunction basically saved the Soviets.
The Red Army counter attacked and the Nazi front came close to collapse, only recovering by giving ground.
As to casualties in the eastern front, 30 million is a good estimate, however the exact figure will never be known.
Contary to popular belief in the west D Day was not the turning point in the war, the back of the German army was broken on the steppes of Russia.
A sound response Bill. Thanks for that, nice to hear from you 'live' so to speak.
And Fred - if the son was actively following in the footsteps of his horrible father, I would certainly expect him to be beaten with the same brush. As I would any of his acolytes.
However if he was innocent of any wrongdoing, regardless of his name, family history, religious beliefs or place/ culture of birth, I would expect him to be left to live his life unharrassed, and be supported like any other person.
Unlike some, who have unreasoning hatred & animosity for sections of humanity, and are not afraid to publish websites or post on public fora about it.
If the tinfoil cap fits, wear it, say I! :cool:
Publish websites? Which web sites would you be talking of and which public fora?
The oil question is interesting but only part of a much larger picture. Some mention of the oil issue is to be found in an article at http://www.2worldwar2.com/russia.htm
But another intersting issue is even before this as one thing leads to another and for me the question of reparations following the first world war and the Weimar Republic offer the chance for huge numbers of observations as to why Germany invaded Russia. For Reparations see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations
For Wiemar Republic see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic
Apologies for making references and running but I read a lot of thick books about this many years ago and dont have time right now to debate the main issue of why German invaded Russia but hope my references provide some useful information on the reasons.
Each twist in history leads to a path that could well have been different asking "what if"
In many respects the facts about Russian and German relations in the period between the wars is still being established as more facts come out so there may yet be twists in this part of history. Yes even history is continually being rewritten. It pays to keep an open mind even when reading history and be prepared for revisions over your life.
The oil question is certainly an interesting one but it leads to many other questions not least about the truth of the history of the period and is all the more valid for that I think.
I agree with this. oil probably became an issue but does not seem to have been a major one when hitler invaded russia.
by july 22 1941 the German panzers were at Smolensk which is abouyt 200 miles from Moscow. it took the troops 5days to catch up and then 9 more days to take the place. that means that by 6 august 1941 the Germans had Smolensk and were only 4 weeks away from taking Moscow.
but Hitler stops and sends the panzers south to Kiev on August 2 and ordered no further advancwe on moscow until kiev had fallen. the panzers meet east of Kiev with the group that had gone to Kiev from the start on sep 16. Army group north surrounded Leninggrad the same day but hitler ordered them not to take it but to lay seige to it. why? 3700 russians in the city died of starvation per day in december. meanwhile the germans had to endure the Russian winter without winter clothing.
krakov was taken on oct 24. then the panzers were sent back up north again and were just 19 miles from Moscow on 4 devember
only later (dec/jan 41/42) did hitler decide to go towards the oil fields in the Caspian regaion.
then he goes for stalingrad - a city of no strtegic importance. then back up north agin.
Meanwhile his military top brass were being dismissed right left and centre.
just what was he doing in Russia? i dont understand it
his units in the south were left sitting ducks to be cut off and the units in the north were left to perish in the Russian winter
The oil question is really a red herring.
The Nazi's were ideologically a racist regime and as has already been mentioned Mein Kampf gives Hitlers thinking on the eastern europeans. The Nazi/Soviet conflict was always going to happen, both sides realised that.
The Nazi's took their chances and invaded whilst the Russians were weak. Stalin had purged the Red Army of many of its senior officers and although on paper they were the largest and best equipped army in the world, they were hamstrung by inexperienced commanders.
As the Nazi forces rolled across the border Stalin refused to believe it, and indeed the Nazi's had many successes in the initial months.
The Nazi's had however not counted on two things 1) the resiliance of the ordinary Russian soldier and the Russian weather.
As the summer turned to autumn the landscape and roads turned into a sea of mud and this effectively stopped the advance. When the winter came, the ground froze and the push for Moscow started again.
By this time, Japan had signed a non agression treaty with Stalin and units from Siberia could be transferred west. This and the extreme cold causing the Nazi equipment to malfunction basically saved the Soviets.
The Red Army counter attacked and the Nazi front came close to collapse, only recovering by giving ground.
As to casualties in the eastern front, 30 million is a good estimate, however the exact figure will never be known.
Contary to popular belief in the west D Day was not the turning point in the war, the back of the German army was broken on the steppes of Russia.
this is another very fine post i think and i agree that the german army was broken in Russia (as the French had been befors them).
you say "The Nazi/Soviet conflict was always going to happen, both sides realised that." this is an interesting idea and i think that stalin was not surprised at all when this started (i saw his facial ewxpressions in an old newsreel footage recently)
John Little
26-May-10, 09:20
Expressions in newsreels may not be a firm basis for conclusions.
You may find this useful;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge
The Sorge ring warned Stalin of Barbarossa, predicting the date to within 2 days, but Koba did not want to believe it.
northener
26-May-10, 09:40
Superpowers certainly don't make good neighbours.
Hitlers meddling in his commanders affairs wasn't something that was unique to the Eastern front. It appeared to be a fairly regular trait.
Towards the end of the war, the Allied commanders were concerned that there may be a successful attempt upon Hitlers life by members of his own top military staff who were desperate to remove him to either sue for a negotiated peace or prolong the war even further through more effective command decisions. The reckoning was that with Hitler as supreme commander, the remaining German forces would never be used as effectively as they could.
I believe that one of the main reasons that there was no effective Panzer units in numbers available to hold the D-Day landings in check was that Hitler had decided (against military advice) that the landings were going to take place further up towards Dover and ordered his armour to that area.
This meddling could be part of the reasons behind Hitlers seemingly incoherent diversionson the Eastern front.
John Little
26-May-10, 10:05
Some truth in that Northener - but he held some in reserve and eventually massed 11. According to Roy Pelling he threw all 11 panzer divisions against the British and Canadians round Caen in an attempt to drive them back into the sea because he did not rate the americans.
That's why Patton's drive was so rapid across France and why the US history books say that the British and Canadians 'failed' to close the Falaise gap and let 50,000 Germans escape.
Superpowers certainly don't make good neighbours.
Hitlers meddling in his commanders affairs wasn't something that was unique to the Eastern front. It appeared to be a fairly regular trait.
Towards the end of the war, the Allied commanders were concerned that there may be a successful attempt upon Hitlers life by members of his own top military staff who were desperate to remove him to either sue for a negotiated peace or prolong the war even further through more effective command decisions. The reckoning was that with Hitler as supreme commander, the remaining German forces would never be used as effectively as they could.
I believe that one of the main reasons that there was no effective Panzer units in numbers available to hold the D-Day landings in check was that Hitler had decided (against military advice) that the landings were going to take place further up towards Dover and ordered his armour to that area.
This meddling could be part of the reasons behind Hitlers seemingly incoherent diversionson the Eastern front.
even when hitler announced operation barbarrosa his generals were stunned into silence not daring to contradict him. as the disatser unfoilded he sacked most of them anyway.
Im glad someone else thinks this behavior in Russia to be seemingly incoherent diversions. was wondering whether it was just me!:)
Hitler was a tyrant and not enough people where willing to questioned his authority!
as with many tyrants hitler was promoted as a saviour ., thats why the german people followed him and idolised him. just likje the pied pieper story. he played a tune that the people wanted desperately to hear i think
as with many tyrants hitler was promoted as a saviour ., thats why the german people followed him and idolised him. just likje the pied pieper story. he played a tune that the people wanted desperately to hear i think
As with many trolls, you pluck one post out of the batch from 4 days ago.
John Little has tuned out, Northener has launched the wheelie bin, and now you seek to engage barmar62.
I do so hope your plan doesn't work, strangely enough I have the same feelings about Hitler.
As with many trolls, you pluck one post out of the batch from 4 days ago.
John Little has tuned out, Northener has launched the wheelie bin, and now you seek to engage barmar62.
I do so hope your plan doesn't work, strangely enough I have the same feelings about Hitler.
just answerng barma62 not "engaging" them. i dont understand what you mean about having the same feelings for hitler?
hitlar was reagarded as a saviour by the german people a good guy soimeone to follow. just like the brits consifdered churchill. just the same4. lambs to the slaughter no matter what language they spoke.
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