View Full Version : Patriotism in a multicultural society
In another thread, oldmarine asked a fellow member about where his patriotism lay.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines a patriot as:
"..a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it.."
Unfortunately it does not clarify from what a patriot is to defend it from
In todays multicultural Britain, to whom does a resident of the UK owe their allegiance to?
To their country of birth
Their new country
Their religion
Other beliefs
I
The Drunken Duck
19-May-10, 16:37
What do you think Anfield ?? .. seeing as you posed the question.
northener
19-May-10, 16:43
'Patriot' isn't word I really like.
It's a word that I find unsettling, especially in it's negative form of 'unpatriotic'....reminds me of McCarthyism a bit too much. As in if you don't agree with a certain viewpoint or attitude to the society that you live in - you must be 'unpatriotic' and not have that societies' best intentions at heart.
Goes along with swearing allegiance to a flag, it's not something that has a place in civilian and non-governmental life IMO.
I would say all of the above, with the caveat that if there is a conflict of interests, an immigrant ought to owe the 'allegiance to their host country, if they feel they cannot then really they ought to consider leaving.
Having said all that, it completely contradicts the behaviour of Brits living abroad :confused
redeyedtreefrog
19-May-10, 17:17
Patriotism is thinking that your country is superior because you were born in it.
Aaldtimer
19-May-10, 17:33
Samuel Johnson anyone? http://www.samueljohnson.com/patrioti.html ;)
oldmarine
19-May-10, 17:40
[quote=Anfield;708907]In another thread, oldmarine asked a fellow member about where his patriotism lay.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines a patriot as:
"..a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it.."
Unfortunately it does not clarify from what a patriot is to defend it from
In todays multicultural Britain, to whom does a resident of the UK owe their allegiance to?
To their country of birth
Their new country
Their religion
Other beliefs
{/quote}
My opinion is at least for their new country if they are immigrating from another country. If they are born in Great Britain they should owe allegience to the country of their birth unless they give up their citizenship, then they should owe allegience to their new country. If their country outlaws their religious belief that becomes a difficult choice and they will have to deal with it accordingly. Other beliefs covers too large an area and would have to be dealt with accordingly depending upon how strongly they believed.
The USA is currently dealing with this issue for people pouring across our porous borders. Some of those people don't want to give up their citizenship with their former country and they don't want to accept the responsibilities of new citizenship in the USA. It becomes a sticky wicket.
I served in the armed forces with men & women who enlisted for the purpose of gaining USA citizenship. They proved their worth by doing so and were granted their USA citizenship.
Patriotism is inclusive, Nationalism is divisive.
What do you think Anfield ?? .. seeing as you posed the question.
My loyalties extend to family, friends and those people & animals who are denied the same basic rights that we take for granted.
The Drunken Duck
19-May-10, 19:15
Fair enough, I was just curious. Strikes me as a bit selfish though.
My opinion is at least for their new country if they are immigrating from another country. If they are born in Great Britain they should owe allegience to the country of their birth unless they give up their citizenship, then they should owe allegience to their new country. .
But what about people who are displaced through no fault of their own, or those who find that the country that their parents brought them to, does not fit in with their beliefs, either religious or idealogical?. Whilst in a perfect world it would be fine if these people could relocate but we do not live in this utopia.
My loyalties extend to family, friends and those people & animals who are denied the same basic rights that we take for granted.
Fair enough, I was just curious. Strikes me as a bit selfish though.
What do you find selfish about my reply?
My loyalties extend to family, friends and those people & animals who are denied the same basic rights that we take for granted.
Dont remember that as one of your original options.
The Drunken Duck
19-May-10, 21:51
What do you find selfish about my reply?
Just that it seems to be that you care about your own little circle and that's it.
For me, I have to have something bigger than just my own interests to commit to.
My loyalties extend to family, friends and those people & animals who are denied the same basic rights that we take for granted.
Dont remember that as one of your original options.
I am confused. My post about loyalties is reproduced above #9 and also #11. What do you find is different
Just that it seems to be that you care about your own little circle and that's it.
For me, I have to have something bigger than just my own interests to commit to.
So are you suggesting that I should add to my list and take up arms to defend all the racists, religious bigots of all denominations, class A drug dealers, children & animal abusers, corrupt business men, corrupt MP's parasitic members of the Windsor family etc etc. and nearly forgot Everton supporters
If you do not mind, I will leave all this crap to you
See what youve done there. Your first post was about patriotism then all of a sudden youve tweaked it to loyalties.
Obviously my Scouse m8 does not do patriotism - he is happy to have others defend him [disgust].
btw - why did his pigs want to leave home :Razz
See what youve done there. Your first post was about patriotism then all of a sudden youve tweaked it to loyalties.
Purely a case of semantics
Obviously my Scouse m8 does not do patriotism - he is happy to have others defend him [disgust].
btw - why did his pigs want to leave home :Razz
They didn't. Simples.
[/b]
They didn't. Simples.
Very intelligent animals are pigs - a bit sharper than my Scouse m8. [lol]
Crackeday
20-May-10, 12:39
I'm not a patriot I am a loyalist!!!!:lol:
Being proud of your "heritage" does not have to exclude being proud of where you live. An example of this is an aunt of mine - She is French - lived in england for forty years as she was married to an english man and still has a french accent and is very definitely french, She is proud to be "the french lady" on her street and she likes to cook french food and used to smoke french cigarettes. However she loves England, she loves her friends and family and her village and the life she leads. She has no desire to return to france to live but she cheers for them in the rugby internationals whilst cheering for the local teams on match days. She is a patriotic french woman who is patriotic about England.
Being proud of your "heritage" does not have to exclude being proud of where you live. An example of this is an aunt of mine - She is French - lived in england for forty years as she was married to an english man and still has a french accent and is very definitely french, She is proud to be "the french lady" on her street and she likes to cook french food and used to smoke french cigarettes. However she loves England, she loves her friends and family and her village and the life she leads. She has no desire to return to france to live but she cheers for them in the rugby internationals whilst cheering for the local teams on match days. She is a patriotic french woman who is patriotic about England.
Just a pity more people who move to the UK arent like your aunt, there would be a lot less racial tension if there were.
Sara Jevo
21-May-10, 21:46
In another thread, oldmarine asked a fellow member about where his patriotism lay.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines a patriot as:
"..a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it.."
Unfortunately it does not clarify from what a patriot is to defend it from
In todays multicultural Britain, to whom does a resident of the UK owe their allegiance to?
To their country of birth
Their new country
Their religion
Other beliefs
I
I dont owe anyone anything (ok, maybe the bank a few pennies). I aint some sort of serf.
It's the people who are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. What is it with people's mentality that they have to belong to a tribe?
John Little
21-May-10, 22:00
I think patriotism is an idea that does not sit well with many British people. A free press and public education have bred a long standing cynicism and insight into what our rulers get up to.
And there has been too much in our society in even the recent past which has needed reform and which is destructive of national pride.
Patriotism ain't about waving flags, singing rule Britannia or bragging on about how much you love the place.
And it certainly ain't my country right or wrong - only jingos do that.
I think it's got something to do with how people react when we are under attack. Those who feel that what we have got is worth defending and do so are the patriots.
northener
21-May-10, 22:08
I think patriotism is an idea that does not sit well with many British people. A free press and public education have bred a long standing cynicism and insight into what our rulers get up to.
And there has been too much in our society in even the recent past which has needed reform and which is destructive of national pride.
Patriotism ain't about waving flags, singing rule Britannia or bragging on about how much you love the place.
And it certainly ain't my country right or wrong - only jingos do that.
I think it's got something to do with how people react when we are under attack. Those who feel that what we have got is worth defending and do so are the patriots.
I reckon you've nailed there, John.
The Drunken Duck
21-May-10, 22:51
So are you suggesting that I should add to my list and take up arms to defend all the racists, religious bigots of all denominations, class A drug dealers, children & animal abusers, corrupt business men, corrupt MP's parasitic members of the Windsor family etc etc. and nearly forgot Everton supporters
If you do not mind, I will leave all this crap to you
Course you will. What a shock.
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"
John Stuart Mill.
Man is born a solitary animal at the centre of his own universe, born without loyalty, born without empathy, all that matters is self.
As he develops he forms bonds, man by nature lives in groups and as he develops a child joins the group of it's family, develops loyalty, develops empathy all that matters is the family.
Then a child will go to school and be part of a larger group, will be in groups within the group, his class, his year, his friends, will start to believe his group is better than other groups. He hasn't managed to let go of being at the centre of the universe yet.
Then he will leave school and go on to join other groups, the group he works with, the clubs he joins, his circle of friends and he will realise that he is part of a far larger group, his country, a large group who share a common culture, common language, common economy, common society and if he isn't still too narcissistic will realise that his loyalty to his friends, family, organisations, class, religions must not surpass his loyalty to the larger group of country.
Unfortunately for many that is where it ends, they see their country as the centre of the universe better than all the others and their smaller groups at the centre of the country. Patriotism becomes nationalism they never develop further and realise that we are all part of an even larger group, a group called humanity and we must never let our loyalties to our smaller groups surpass our loyalty to that one. They still see themselves at the centre of the universe, they haven't realised it's an illusion.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/escher-crystal-ball.gif
John Little
22-May-10, 13:08
Is that you in the photo Fred?
Is that you in the photo Fred?
Escher innit.
Is that you in the photo Fred?
That is an M C Escher self portrait.
John Little
22-May-10, 13:51
Oh right - thanks.
I thought it might have a resemblance to Fred.
But maybe not.
Interesting observations though.
Are you speaking from personal experience?
I reckon you've nailed there, John.
Aye, I would agree.
He hasn't managed to let go of being at the centre of the universe yet.
Then he will leave school and go on to join other groups, the group he works with, the clubs he joins, his circle of friends and he will realise that he is part of a far larger group, his country, a large group who share a common culture, common language, common economy, common society and if he isn't still too narcissistic will realise that his loyalty to his friends, family, organisations, class, religions must not surpass his loyalty to the larger group of country.
Unfortunately for many that is where it ends, they see their country as the centre of the universe better than all the others and their smaller groups at the centre of the country. Patriotism becomes nationalism they never develop further and realise that we are all part of an even larger group, a group called humanity and we must never let our loyalties to our smaller groups surpass our loyalty to that one. They still see themselves at the centre of the universe, they haven't realised it's an illusion.
I'm not sure whether your being literal or using artistic licence. Some of it makes sense but theres somthing not quite right about it.
I dont understand your conclusion.
What do you mean by illusion?
Aye, I would agree.
I'm not sure whether your being literal or using artistic licence. Some of it makes sense but theres somthing not quite right about it.
I dont understand your conclusion.
What do you mean by illusion?
Look at the picture I posted. If you take a reflective sphere and look at it your reflection will be in the centre. It doesn't matter where you stand or where you put the sphere you will see your face right bang in the centre of it.
But someone else looking at the sphere will see themselves at the centre not you, it's just an illusion.
Look at the picture I posted. If you take a reflective sphere and look at it your reflection will be in the centre. It doesn't matter where you stand or where you put the sphere you will see your face right bang in the centre of it.
But someone else looking at the sphere will see themselves at the centre not you, it's just an illusion.
I dont see myself or anyone else at the centre of the universe. I'm aware of sense of self and the delusionary processes involved in such a complex chemical and electrical reaction known as consciousness.
I still dont get your point.
What exactly is the illusion?
I dont see myself or anyone else at the centre of the universe. I'm aware of sense of self and the delusionary processes involved in such a complex chemical and electrical reaction known as consciousness.
I still dont get your point.
What exactly is the illusion?
Yet if another country had done to Britain what Britain did to Iraq and Afghanistan I have a feeling your views on the matter would be somewhat different.
Yet if another country had done to Britain what Britain did to Iraq and Afghanistan I have a feeling your views on the matter would be somewhat different.
You have no idea what I think fred.
I have little interest in challenging your position on anything. I want to know what you mean when you are talking about illusion.
You have no idea what I think fred.
I have little interest in challenging your position on anything. I want to know what you mean when you are talking about illusion.
Are you telling me that what you write here does not reflect what you think? That you write one thing while thinking another?
We can discuss my opinions about anything you like although I suspect there would be little point and you would not want it get personal if your own posts on the org are to be believed. Neither would I.
All I want to know is what you mean when you suggest that everyone is living in an illusion? Its a straight forward question, no tricks, Im not trying to find a crack in anything you say. I am trying to understand what you mean when you used the word illusion?
We can discuss my opinions about anything you like although I suspect there would be little point and you would not want it get personal if your own posts on the org are to be believed. Neither would I.
All I want to know is what you mean when you suggest that everyone is living in an illusion? Its a straight forward question, no tricks, Im not trying to find a crack in anything you say. I am trying to understand what you mean when you used the word illusion?
So what is there that is real about patriotism?
Human organisms and the consciousness that makes it human have a peculiar quality. We all know there are other possibilities for the human race but those possibilities cannot be taken in isolation from the everyday process of human behaviour.
Its all very well standing outside history and claiming it could have been this way or that way, but in my world that's a fantasy.
We are what we are warts n all.
I take it from your insistance that the rest of the world is out of step with yourself that you have risen above the everyday processes involved in human behaviour?
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