A Conservative Scotland

[ducati]

It strikes me that as more and more 'middle class' English people migrate to Scotland, it can only be a matter of time. ;)

Less and less likely the independence crowd will get support to carry on with their nonsense. :roll:

[NickInTheNorth]

It strikes me that as more and more 'middle class' English people migrate to Scotland, it can only be a matter of time. ;)

Less and less likely the independence crowd will get support to carry on with their nonsense. :roll:

Attitudes like that will make calls for independence louder and more likely - not less.

I really hate english people that come to scotland with "english" attitude.

And I'm english!

[golach]

It strikes me that as more and more 'middle class' English people migrate to Scotland, it can only be a matter of time. ;)

Less and less likely the independence crowd will get support to carry on with their nonsense. :roll:

The Conservatives have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming the Main Party in Scotland, IMHO Scotland will swing to the Lib Dems next year in the Scottish Elections. The Scottish Nationalists ( Tartan Tories) have had their day, and have blown it.

[gleeber]

Ducatis being deliberately provocative and it would do his case no harm to show a little humility in his partys victory over the border and not treat the Scots with that typical Tory disdain. :roll:
Your right though Nick. A tory party in Westminster strenghens the Indepenance cause in Scotland. I'm for the union but I could easily be persuaded otherwise if the Tories were to be the government for a long period.

[Bobinovich]

I want to see a party who will knock back this daft SNP policy of not building new nuclear plants in Scotland. Our energy requirements are only going to increase, and we need guaranteed generation methods to ensure we don't get blackouts :(.

[John Little]

It strikes me that as more and more 'middle class' English people migrate to Scotland, it can only be a matter of time. ;)

Less and less likely the independence crowd will get support to carry on with their nonsense. :roll:


He-he. Someone's after the Org equivalent of a pub fight ....

Of course it could be that english people migrate to Scotland to get away from the Tories.....

[fred]

It strikes me that as more and more 'middle class' English people migrate to Scotland, it can only be a matter of time. ;)

Less and less likely the independence crowd will get support to carry on with their nonsense. :roll:

I thought "Independent" was Scottish for Conservative.

[bekisman]

He-he. Someone's after the Org equivalent of a pub fight ....

Of course it could be that english people migrate to Scotland to get away from the Tories.....
Now where is it you're going John? ;)

[ducati]

Thanks to you all. Just a little dippy toe in the water :D

[ducati]

Now a quick question if you please.

Why specificaly, would you not vote Conservative?

And please don't shout at me :D

[NickInTheNorth]

for their fundamental belief that it is better to reward the wealthy than the poor in any situation...

[ducati]

for their fundamental belief that it is better to reward the wealthy than the poor in any situation...


Nope, that's just prejudice and perception, a proper reason please.

[NickInTheNorth]

having been a member of the conservative party from the age of 18 to 38 and having worked very closely with several conservative MP's it is certainly a perception, from up close and personal!

And if a single example of that type of thinking is required then why oh why when the country is facing it's biggest financial crisis in decades and tax revenues need to be maximised and spending minimised was there a commitment to ease the burden of inheritance tax on the already wealthy.

You cannot take money out of this life with you so why effectively make the dead rich richer?

[ducati]

having been a member of the conservative party from the age of 18 to 38 and having worked very closely with several conservative MP's it is certainly a perception, from up close and personal!

Well I have, for longer than that, and it's not my perception so it must be subjective?

[NickInTheNorth]

see the above edited post :)

[NickInTheNorth]

Well I have, for longer than that, and it's not my perception so it must be subjective?

The scales are removed from your eyes when you leave the party :D

[ducati]

see the above edited post :)

Yep that is a bit of a PR fopar, but it isn't really a big issue?

And as property south of the border reaches astronomical hights it is making life easer for the less well off. £Million houses are not that rare these days.

But back to the question, I have been watching a programme: Why don't the Scots vote Tory. And the interviews with vociferous anti Torys lead me to conclude that many don't actually know why they don't like 'em. But they don't like 'em with a passion :mad:

[NickInTheNorth]

A large part of the answer as to why the scots don't vote tory can be summed up in one of the most shameful policies introduced by that despicable witch thatcher.

Community charge...

I doubt the tories will amount to anything in scotland while any victim of that tax on the poor still lives

As to million pound houses becoming common in southern england why does that accident of inflation make it right to offer tax relief to the rich when they pop their clogs when the country is facing it's darkest economic hour in a generation?

[Sara Jevo]

The Tories in Scotland are perceived generally as party that's completely out of touch with mainstream opinion and culture (regardless of whether you like that culture or opinion).

They are perceived to lack any sort of compassion for the less well off or disadvantaged. Policies such as cutting taxes for millionaires reinforce perceptions about where there priorities lie.

There will be a tussle in Scotland between the SNP and Labour for the "disgusted" Lib Dem voters if Clegg gets into bed with Cameron and gives him the keys to No. 10.

I can see two scenarios here:

a) Scottish Labour, freed from the shackles of defending its record at UK level, re-invents itself as a party that puts Scotland first

b) More voters are tempted by SNP claims that the best way to put Scotland's interest first is a Yes vote in an independence referendum.

The "winners" in Scotland of a Tory/Lib alliance will be Labour and the SNP.

Given some of the decisions the new PM will have to make, the Tories will be marginally more popular in Scoland than the BNP.

[Anfield]

A large part of the answer as to why the scots don't vote tory can be summed up in one of the most shameful policies introduced by that despicable witch thatcher.
Community charge...



Agree with you 100%,
I am getting my dancing shoes ready for the day when she. ....

[ducati]

I thought the community charge was to make it farer? So that single person households paid less then one with say 5 earners?

Apparently it was introduced a year early in Scotland to spare the Scots from a revaluation due.

Think of the farm with 3 sons and the father dies, currently the farm would have to be sold to pay the inheritance tax. Surely it would be farer to allow the sons to keep the farm they probably worked all there lives on?

And so on.......

[YummyMummy]

There will be a tussle in Scotland between the SNP and Labour for the "disgusted" Lib Dem voters if Clegg gets into bed with Cameron and gives him the keys to No. 10....
Given some of the decisions the new PM will have to make, the Tories will be marginally more popular in Scoland than the BNP.

Followed closely by the Liberal Democrats.
I wonder how many folk that put a cross by John Thurso might have thought differently if they knew Nick Clegg was about to deceive them?
Perhaps if he had been a bit more sincere about his intentions during the campaign, the Scottish electorate might have been more able to make an informed decision. By voting lib dem, many have inadvertantly voted Tory rule. Shame on you Mr Clegg.

Unless of course, you decide to take up Mr Brown's offer - in which case, all is forgiven:D

[NickInTheNorth]

I thought the community charge was to make it farer? So that single person households paid less then one with say 5 earners?

Apparently it was introduced a year early in Scotland to spare the Scots from a revaluation due.

Think of the farm with 3 sons and the father dies, currently the farm would have to be sold to pay the inheritance tax. Surely it would be farer to allow the sons to keep the farm they probably worked all there lives on?

And so on.......

The whole of the UK rejected the concept of the poll tax pretty quickly as grossly unfair, even the majority of the conservative party, indeed even senior members of the cabinet were against it even before it was introduced, and you are trying to defend it...

Maybe that is why you are incapable of understanding why the tories are so deeply hated in scotland?

[ducati]

The whole of the UK rejected the concept of the poll tax pretty quickly as grossly unfair, even the majority of the conservative party, indeed even senior members of the cabinet were against it even before it was introduced, and you are trying to defend it...

Maybe that is why you are incapable of understanding why the tories are so deeply hated in scotland?

Not incapable, I'm trying to. Looking for reasons, so far I've just got feelings and perceptions.

I certainly hope we don't end up with a government made up of the partys that lost the election, how is that democracy?

[NickInTheNorth]

Not incapable, I'm trying to. Looking for reasons, so far I've just got feelings and perceptions.

I certainly hope we don't end up with a government made up of the partys that lost the election, how is that democracy?

Quite simple really if you understand the basic principles of the constitution.

In the UK we elect neither the executive, nor the head of state. We elect members of parliament. We don't even elect members of parliament based on their party allegiance, and any member is entitled to become a member of any party that will accept them, or of none at any time.

Whoever is able to show they can command the confidence of a majority of those MP's can be invited by her majesty to form a government. It does not need to be an overall majority, simply more people supporting that particular group of MP's than any other grouping is able to show.

[ShelleyCowie]

Not incapable, I'm trying to. Looking for reasons, so far I've just got feelings and perceptions.

I certainly hope we don't end up with a government made up of the partys that lost the election, how is that democracy?

All i see happening in the future is bad things. As my mum would say "the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer" if the conservatives are in power!

I agree ducati, not sure how people would actually want the government built up with partys that never actually won! And yes, surely we cant class it as a democracy!

I dont hate the conservatives, i hate what they do and what their intentions are! I would say the same about any other party if their intentions were the same actually!

I dont know alot about the gubberment and whatever, lost interest a few years ago but now i want to know more! :lol:

[NickInTheNorth]

and how can it be said to be a democracy when (in round numbers) 10 million votes gets you 307 seats if you are conservative (more if you are labour!)

8 Million gets you 258 seats if you are labour (and less if conservative)

and 7 million votes gets you 57 seats if you are LibDem (and way way more than that if you are either labour or conservative)

I can well understand the 2 dinosaur parties not liking PR, but surely anyone can see that the current system is neither fair, nor democratic?

[NickInTheNorth]

I agree ducati, not sure how people would actually want the government built up with partys that never actually won! And yes, surely we cant class it as a democracy!



Shelley, I hope you will forgive me snipping away much of your post, I just want to address that part I have quoted.

People in the UK elect individual members of parliament. Even allowing the party name on the ballot paper is a relatively recent concession.

It is therefore wrong to say that any party "lost", each individual MP has won, therefore a collection of winners will form the next government of the UK.

If as I fear the LibDems do come to some deal with the tories I will be furious. If I were a LibDem MP I would very seriously consider leaving the party and joining labour as I believe their policies are far more in keeping with the values and policies set out in the LibDem manifesto for 2010. That is an option open to all the LibDem MP's elected.

If they all chose to do so then Labour would suddenly find itself the largest single party. And what is more it would be perfectly legal and constitutional!

[ducati]

and how can it be said to be a democracy when (in round numbers) 10 million votes gets you 307 seats if you are conservative (more if you are labour!)

8 Million gets you 258 seats if you are labour (and less if conservative)

and 7 million votes gets you 57 seats if you are LibDem (and way way more than that if you are either labour or conservative)

I can well understand the 2 dinosaur parties not liking PR, but surely anyone can see that the current system is neither fair, nor democratic?

I agree, that is being discussed all over the forum. I was just trying to get a feel for why the Torys are so detested in Scotland, I rather fear that "Torys" are analogous with "English"

[Anfield]

I certainly hope we don't end up with a government made up of the partys that lost the election, how is that democracy?

As no party won over 50% of the votes, we will (unless another election is held) end up with a government which the majority of people did not want,

How about if we hold a re-run on the 621/2 seats that the top 3 parties won and limit the candidates to those three parties. The other 29/28 constituencies would keep the candidates they returned as their MP.

Given the last three days of shenanigans/back office deals etc, voters could then weigh up the options of tactical voting to ensure that they get a MP to act on their behalf and not in their own interests.

[luskentyre]

Now a quick question if you please.

Why specificaly, would you not vote Conservative?

And please don't shout at me :D

Basically because they do not engender any degree of trust what so ever. I wouldn't trust David Cameron to hold a door open for me. The overwhelming impression I get from them is that they look after their own e.g. the priviliged.

[Boozeburglar]

It would be simple to add a 2nd choice option in the ballot, etc..

[Sara Jevo]

I agree, that is being discussed all over the forum. I was just trying to get a feel for why the Torys are so detested in Scotland, I rather fear that "Torys" are analogous with "English"

Perhaps . . I doubt if there is one single reason, however.

If you go back 50 years, Scotland was a Tory country. The party won with more than 50 per cent of all votes cast.

Why has it dwindled now to a fringe party?

Resentment towards the impact of the Tory Party during the 1980s is still a huge factor.

It's also seen to be a centralist party that offers little or nothing in the way of distinctly Scottish identity and policies.

It will struggle in Scotland in the same way that Labour has struggled the last few years - it's Scottish leadership will have to toe the UK line and cannot really develop policies distinctively different for Scotland.

Fundamentally, I think the key thing that makes the Tories unpopular here, however, is the perception that the party puts the individual's interest before that of the wider community.

I dont know anyone whose ambition is to become super-rich, or a millionaire.

People just want to be able to live comfortably in a society that is fair and looks after the less fortunate. Tory policies do not resonate with that outlook.

The opposite in fact - they are perceived to "blame" the disadvantaged for their own misfortune and reward the better off with a greater share of the common wealth.

[ducati]

Thanks for that Sara, some thought gone into the answer.:D

[John Little]

A Conservative government is an organized hypocrisy.
-Disraeli, Benjamin, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield
Speech, House of Commons

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-Bierce, Ambrose Gwinett
The Cynic's Word Book. Retitled The Devil's Dictionary (1911)

[ducati]

A Conservative government is an organized hypocrisy.
-Disraeli, Benjamin, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield
Speech, House of Commons

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-Bierce, Ambrose Gwinett
The Cynic's Word Book. Retitled The Devil's Dictionary (1911)

Why don't any of your quotes a) make sense or b) sound like English [lol]

[John Little]

Could be because they were both by Conservatives.....[lol]

[RecQuery]

The problem the Tories face is they're still seen as an upper class or rich mans party. Their manifesto and policies don't help this perception. It seems older people support them more and older people are more likely to vote. I think thats what screwed the Lib Dems in many ways also. I can't see them getting any traction in Scotland for at least another 50 years.

On a side note and in a non-discriminatory way I notice a lot of the people I talk to up here through work; what seems like a disproportionate amount in fact are from England.

EDIT: Additionally I just don't like David Cameron, I mean lots of politicians can be fake in a way. He just seems really fake. I liked Michael Howard and some other Tory politicians its just Cameron annoys me.

If the Lib Dems can get a referendum on PR I think they should consider some sort of agreement with the Tories, it'll work out best for them and labour in the long run.

[ducati]

On a side note and in a non-discriminatory way I notice a lot of the people I talk to up here through work; what seems like a disproportionate amount in fact are from England.



You're absolutely right, and if you look at business owners, such as B & Bs Hotels and Taxi Firms :Razz It is even more so.

[ducati]

So I am concluding, as more and more people in Scotland become rich, ands less and less are poor, we can look forward to the return of the Torys in pretty short order? :D

[Shabbychic]

So I am concluding, as more and more people in Scotland become rich, ands less and less are poor, we can look forward to the return of the Torys in pretty short order? :D

My, aren't you high and mighty? How insulting. So all us poor Scots will be educated by the rich, incoming English, and taught how to vote Tory? I don't think, if I was you, I would conclude too much, nor hold your breath. :D

[ducati]

My, aren't you high and mighty? How insulting. So all us poor Scots will be educated by the rich, incoming English, and taught how to vote Tory? I don't think, if I was you, I would conclude too much, nor hold your breath. :D

Don't you want to be rich? :cool:

[Shabbychic]

Don't you want to be rich? :cool:

Who said I'm not rich? ;)

Anyway, methinks you are missing the point. Do you honestly believe that Scotland does not vote Tory because we are all poor? :confused

[ducati]

Who said I'm not rich? ;)

Anyway, methinks you are missing the point. Do you honestly believe that Scotland does not vote Tory because we are all poor? :confused

I don't know where you came by that idea. I think Scotland doesn't vote conservative out of habit and prejudice and half concieved, misconceptions. An inferiority complex and a vested interest in keeping the status quo. As you asked :D

[Perambulate]

Don't you want to be rich? :cool:

would there be a problem if we didnt?:confused

[ducati]

would there be a problem if we didnt?:confused

Not for me ;)

[fred]

I don't know where you came by that idea. I think Scotland doesn't vote conservative out of habit and prejudice and half concieved, misconceptions. An inferiority complex and a vested interest in keeping the status quo. As you asked :D

If they want to keep the status quo then they are being Conservative.

[John Little]

Whit ah want tae knaw is, if David Cameron becomes e Prime Minister
will he do as Donald Angus Cameron of Lochiel tells him to?

He is is feudal overlord after all....

[Shabbychic]

I don't know where you came by that idea. I think Scotland doesn't vote conservative out of habit and prejudice and half concieved, misconceptions. An inferiority complex and a vested interest in keeping the status quo. As you asked :D

So it's not because we're poor, it's because we're stupid? :eek: This is getting even more insulting. It's nice to see what Tories, like yourself, think of us. And you wonder why we don't vote Tory??

[ducati]

If they want to keep the status quo then they are being Conservative.

Good point

[ducati]

So it's not because we're poor, it's because we're stupid? :eek: This is getting even more insulting. It's nice to see what Tories, like yourself, think of us. And you wonder why we don't vote Tory??

Why do you keep trying to put words in my er... keyboard? :eek:

[golach]

I don't know where you came by that idea. I think Scotland doesn't vote conservative out of habit and prejudice and half concieved, misconceptions. An inferiority complex and a vested interest in keeping the status quo. As you asked :D

Your completely out of order with this statement ducati. We Scots do not vote conservative, not for the reasons you have stated, we do not vote conservative by our own choice, not out of habit or prejudice, we already have our own home grown Tories governing in Holyrood at the moment with mr Salmond and his Scots Nats. [disgust]

[ducati]

Your completely out of order with this statement ducati. We Scots do not vote conservative, not for the reasons you have stated, we do not vote conservative by our own choice, not out of habit or prejudice, we already have our own home grown Tories governing in Holyrood at the moment with mr Salmond and his Scots Nats. [disgust]

OK. I don't want to talk about this anymore you are all getting very cross :eek:

[NickInTheNorth]

OK. I don't want to talk about this anymore you are all getting very cross :eek:

Not seen anyone getting cross, but I've seen someone that has not used a long enough stick to really stir a hornets nest :)

[RecQuery]

Don't feed the trolls people, no need to take it personally. Even if he actually meant it which I don't he did, we're all getting rather worked up.

[Andfield]

This is/was quite entertaining being on the outside looking in, so to speak. :Razz[lol]