View Full Version : Caravan Tax
piratelassie
25-Apr-10, 21:41
Does anyone else believe there is an argument for taxing caravan owners when they tow their caravans on the public road. Its well known the inconvenience they cause and a tax would help towards well needed road repairs.
Yep, I agree. About £5k per annum should be enough.
equusdriving
25-Apr-10, 22:04
I believe that it would be far fairer if there was an amount included in the price of petrol for road tax, then the more miles you do the more you pay,owners of bigger engined cars would pay more and people towing caravans etc would pay more as they use copnsiderably more fuel when towing. Mind you at the price of petrol now i think it should include the road tax for FREE!!!!!!
Dog-eared
25-Apr-10, 22:06
Caravans can be a nuisance, but we pay enough in road tax at present to repair the roads many times over. Its a fact that road tax is not all spent on roads. A good portion is syphoned off elsewhere. Taxing caravans might seem a good idea, but won't change the state of our roads one bit.
I propose a new law allowing them to be on on the roads between the hours of 1am - 5am only. Caravanning................. just don't get it I'm afraid!
And we could tax...
Horse riding
Trailers in tow
Bicycles
Pedestrians
Joggers
Learner drivers
People crossing the road
Accident scenes
Failed traffic lights etc. etc...
Angel...
I don’t think there should be a tax on caravans any more than I think there should be a tax on trailers carrying, motorbikes, boats, jet-skis, horses or any other livestock, or anything else for that matter.
The claim that, “It’s well known the inconvenience they cause,” has been refuted many times. Caravans are no more a nuisance than many other vehicles on the road. Most caravanners take care to ensure their caravan is towed by a suitable car in accordance with the law and can keep up with the flow of traffic with minimum inconvenience to other road users.
Of course there will always be the odd idiot towing a caravan just as there is the odd idiot driving a white van or an articulated lorry.
I get the feeling some people can’t abide the sight of a caravan because it means someone is on holiday and they aren’t! :roll:
I think they should get rid of road tax altogether and increase the tax on fuel to compensate it so the people that use the road most pay more vice versa also it would cut down on staff needed to process the road tax
Nice one Angel,. not a lot of need for more woffle.
Methinks there is some confusion here what Vehicle Excise Duty, (commonly known as Road Tax ), actually is, and what it "entitles" the payer of that tax.
It is simply a record that the VED on that particular vehicle has been paid to the government. Paying of that tax does not inherently guarantee you a road to drive it on.
The Road Fund as it was originally called has NEVER been exclusively spent on the road infrastructure. It's pure and simply yet another Excise Duty.
Any extra tax on caravans would therefore make no impact on road repairs.
(I must admit to still having some sympathy with the original caravan argument of this thread though when i need to pass one:mad:)
I get the feeling some people can’t abide the sight of a caravan because it means someone is on holiday and they aren’t! :roll:
err ... i doubt this is the case, even prisoners at her majesty's pleasure get more room to kip and don't have to slop out.
look at most caravan drivers ... they're retired, chilled out and have all the time in the world to get to where their going .... i don't, maybe that's what i'm jealous of, it's certainly not spending my holiday in a tin box.
i hate caravans and campers as much as the next 60+ mph driver, (especially the ones that drive in tandem or refuse to pull in and allow overtaking)
but taxing them isn't the answer, allegedly ... and i say this with bated breath .... the uk govt raise 40 billion a year in road tax and yet only spend 7 of that 40 billion on our roads ... where does the rest go ? ... Trident ?
Aaldtimer
26-Apr-10, 03:12
I believe that it would be far fairer if there was an amount included in the price of petrol for road tax, then the more miles you do the more you pay,owners of bigger engined cars would pay more and people towing caravans etc would pay more as they use copnsiderably more fuel when towing. Mind you at the price of petrol now i think it should include the road tax for FREE!!!!!!
Equus, you've already answered your own question.
People who tow caravans already use more fuel to do so.
Ergo, they are already paying more tax in the extra fuel that they have to purchase!
Simples, tcheeck!:confused
err ... i doubt this is the case, even prisoners at her majesty's pleasure get more room to kip and don't have to slop out.
look at most caravan drivers ... they're retired, chilled out and have all the time in the world to get to where their going .... i don't, maybe that's what i'm jealous of, it's certainly not spending my holiday in a tin box.
i hate caravans and campers as much as the next 60+ mph driver, (especially the ones that drive in tandem or refuse to pull in and allow overtaking)
but taxing them isn't the answer, allegedly ... and i say this with bated breath .... the uk govt raise 40 billion a year in road tax and yet only spend 7 of that 40 billion on our roads ... where does the rest go ? ... Trident ?
And the EU.
err ... i doubt this is the case, even prisoners at her majesty's pleasure get more room to kip and don't have to slop out.
Caravanners don't slop out - when on site they will usually use the site facilities. If they use the caravan loo during the night they just empty their cassete toilet, easily and simply. Things have moved on since the old Elsan bucket. :D
look at most caravan drivers ... they're retired, chilled out and have all the time in the world to get to where their going .... i don't, maybe that's what i'm jealous of, it's certainly not spending my holiday in a tin box..
Caravanners vary in age, and caravanning is enjoyed by families of all sizes and all kinds. If you visit camping and caravanning sites near any of the popular holiday destinations you will see this for yourself. ;)
i hate caravans and campers as much as the next 60+ mph driver, (especially the ones that drive in tandem or refuse to pull in and allow overtaking)
As a 60+ MPH driver you are breaking the law unless you're on a motorway; and as a 60+ MPH driver you will be use to coming across trucks, vans, tractors and a varierty of other drivers driving within the speed limit.
Of course there will be the occasional idiots driving caravans in convoy just as you will find trucks travelling together. :confused
but taxing them isn't the answer, allegedly ... and i say this with bated breath .... the uk govt raise 40 billion a year in road tax and yet only spend 7 of that 40 billion on our roads ... where does the rest go ? ... Trident ?
The rest goes to pay MP's expenses.
northener
26-Apr-10, 22:23
Does anyone else believe there is an argument for taxing caravan owners when they tow their caravans on the public road. Its well known the inconvenience they cause and a tax would help towards well needed road repairs.
I'd like a tax on road users who get annoyed when something slower than them has the audacity to be on road.......they're a well known inconvenience, y'know:cool:
Why do some people find it so difficult to overtake a car and caravan? Treat them as you would any other articulated vehicle, which are also speed restricted, and if you can't do that perhaps you should give up driving permanently.
Seriously, I think the Government gets enough in road taxes from motorists; if they must raise more cash then perhaps raise the tax on motorbikes, which use the roads a lot more than caravans.
piratelassie
27-Apr-10, 00:36
The majority of caravaners, in my experience. do NOT drive with consideration for other road users. As regards lorries busses etc. these people are at work not on holiday.
BillyEspie
27-Apr-10, 01:07
at the present time instead of getting people to pay tax, the y should get people who actually know how to put tar on the roads in the first place, if the job was done properly to start with like the road up to lidl (WICK) then there wouldn't be any problems like it wasn't the frost or snow that made that road that bad cause i remember back to the summer past and it was like that so charging caravan owners really isn't the answer to our roads its the people who lay the tar.
Don't blame the gang laying the asphalt, they can only do as good a job with what they are supplied, instead, blame the council or Transerve; whoever has responsibility for the road will specify a particular blend of bitumen and aggregate, one which they feel should adequately meet the volume of traffic and for as little expenditure as possible, though in most cases budget constraints are the deciding factor. Certainly, harsh weather can be a big factor in a road breaking up, but I'd put money on the asphalt being substandard to begin with.
Where is the nearest asphalt plant to Wick/Thurso? The distance a load has travelled also impacts on the quality of the load, rapid cooling or asphalt mixed at the lowest end of it's temperature range can affect it's compaction, which is why you may see a recently layed stretch start to break up.
In case anyone is wondering, it is a waste of your taxes spraying bitumen and spreading loose chips on the road surface, it is, as you suspect, just to use up the budget. Also, apart from the dangers of flying chips damaging vehicles or hurting pedestrians, the surface gives absolutely no skid resistance.
Don't blame the gang laying the asphalt, they can only do as good a job with what they are supplied, instead, blame the council or Transerve; whoever has responsibility for the road will specify a particular blend of bitumen and aggregate, one which they feel should adequately meet the volume of traffic and for as little expenditure as possible, though in most cases budget constraints are the deciding factor. Certainly, harsh weather can be a big factor in a road breaking up, but I'd put money on the asphalt being substandard to begin with.
Where is the nearest asphalt plant to Wick/Thurso? The distance a load has travelled also impacts on the quality of the load, rapid cooling or asphalt mixed at the lowest end of it's temperature range can affect it's compaction, which is why you may see a recently layed stretch start to break up.
In case anyone is wondering, it is a waste of your taxes spraying bitumen and spreading loose chips on the road surface, it is, as you suspect, just to use up the budget. Also, apart from the dangers of flying chips damaging vehicles or hurting pedestrians, the surface gives absolutely no skid resistance.
Here endeth the first lesson from the tarmac fairy! ;)
Thank you tho - most informative!
northener
27-Apr-10, 07:18
.....
Seriously, I think the Government gets enough in road taxes from motorists; if they must raise more cash then perhaps raise the tax on motorbikes, which use the roads a lot more than caravans.
Oi!!!!!![mad]
northener
27-Apr-10, 07:19
.....In case anyone is wondering, it is a waste of your taxes spraying bitumen and spreading loose chips on the road surface, it is, as you suspect, just to use up the budget. Also, apart from the dangers of flying chips damaging vehicles or hurting pedestrians, the surface gives absolutely no skid resistance.
And it's lethal if you're on a motorbike.
dragonfly
27-Apr-10, 07:59
The majority of caravaners, in my experience. do NOT drive with consideration for other road users. As regards lorries busses etc. these people are at work not on holiday.
and what are they doing that you class as inconsiderate? Driving at a slower speed than you?
Drivers towing caravans are restricted by law to drive at no more than 50mph (albeit many drive faster than this).
In my opinion the majority of road users are inconsiderate - if more drivers left decent gaps between themselves and the car in front it would allow for safer overtaking. I was taught to drive on an open road leaving 2 cars length between me and the car in front (2 second rule) making it easy for a faster moving vehicle to overtake safely instead of it having to put the foot hard down to overtake a mini convoy of cars all nose to tail
The majority of caravaners, in my experience. do NOT drive with consideration for other road users. As regards lorries busses etc. these people are at work not on holiday.
:roll: Most caravanners will have paid a considerable sum of money to purchase their ‘van, (including VAT). In addition they will have insured it against damage, theft etc. etc. On top of that many will pay storage charges to keep their ‘van somewhere safe while not in use. After making such an ‘investment’ many caravanners are not going to jeopardise their outfit by behaving in a cavalier manner on the roads.
OK so there are a few numpties out there but there are also numpties driving many other vehicles.
If you read the caravanning press you will find tales of other drivers behaving atrociously around caravans; pulling out of a side road in front of one, or cutting in while overtaking, just because they don’t want to get stuck behind one.
As I’ve said repeatedly, most caravanners take care to ensure their outfit is properly balanced and fit for the road so as to keep up with the flow of traffic and not to invalidate their insurance.
To reinforce dragonfly's point and to remind the sceptics like piratelassie, Nacho and any other driver who thinks it's OK to drive fast, the speed limits are;
In a built up area cars towing caravans or trailers are restricted to 30 MPH; the same as every other vehicle.
On a single carriageway cars towing caravans or trailers are restricted to 50 MPH along with buses, coaches, and goods vehicles not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. (Goods vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight are restricted to 40 MPH)
On a dual carriageway cars towing caravans or trailers are restricted to 60 MPH along with buses, coaches, and goods vehicles not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. (Goods vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight are restricted to 50 MPH).
If anyone is in any doubt they should visit this (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/speedknowyourlimits.pdf) site.
At the end of the day whatever you drive you owe it to yourself, those closest to you and to other road users to drive carefully.
If you read the caravanning press
:eek::eek::eek:
I think we should pull the troops out of Afghanistan and bring them all back, including the Apache helicopters.
Get these machines re-liveried battenburg stylee and get them policing the roads dishing out a bit of instant justice. It would cover a whole range of motoring atrocities, caravans & campervans could be taken out with a hellfire, any long queue of traffic could be easily inspected from the air and the lead vehicle slowing everyone down could be strafed with the machine gun.
And in the cities where they use police choppers to follow stolen vehicles and record the chase only to see the twocers running away after trashing the motor, send in an apache with a quick air to surface missile and bingo, no more twocing.
equusdriving
27-Apr-10, 10:01
Equus, you've already answered your own question.
People who tow caravans already use more fuel to do so.
Ergo, they are already paying more tax in the extra fuel that they have to purchase!
Simples, tcheeck!:confused
I didnt ask a question and I think you missed my point I was merely saying that the fairest way would be to scrap Road Tax and include it in the price of petrol so that the amount you you pay is proportional to the amount you use the road
And also why do bigger engined vehicles pay higher road tax because as you say
"they are already paying more tax in the extra fuel that they have to purchase"
Does anyone else believe there is an argument for taxing caravan owners when they tow their caravans on the public road. Its well known the inconvenience they cause and a tax would help towards well needed road repairs.
Caravan owners actually pay lots more tax - the fuel consumption when pulling is much higher than in just the car. Since they buy a lot more fuel which is nowadays almost all tax then they are, 'surprise surprise', subsidising the ordinary motorist.
madmissus
27-Apr-10, 19:25
Pirate lassie you are absolutely wrong, me and ma OH don't go for expensive holidays abroad as we have a child with learnin needs and our caravan is our lifeline, it is familiar surroundings for him where we can get away regularly and by the way we have both worked since we were 18 payin plenty taxes, the road tax for our 4x4 is already over £400 and we get no extra benefits gronnuck you have got the right approach!!
Here endeth the first lesson from the tarmac fairy! ;)
Thank you tho - most informative!
A rare moment when I actually know what I'm talking about, I'll try not to let it happen again. ;)
Pirate lassie you are absolutely wrong, me and ma OH don't go for expensive holidays abroad as we have a child with learnin needs and our caravan is our lifeline, it is familiar surroundings for him where we can get away regularly and by the way we have both worked since we were 18 payin plenty taxes, the road tax for our 4x4 is already over £400 and we get no extra benefits gronnuck you have got the right approach!!
madmissus you're not alone in having a child who enjoys life better in a familiar setting. There is no better way for them to get out and about and see a bit of the country in their own home from home. I hope you've found than in the main fellow campers and caravanners are a welcoming crowd. :D
George Brims
28-Apr-10, 00:56
Why do some people find it so difficult to overtake a car and caravan?
I'll tell you one reason. People who use a car that's too small to safely tow their caravan. They struggle up hills and then surge ahead on down grades. Very hard to get past.
And I'll tell you another reason. Far too many caravanners do not have the proper wing mirrors to be able to see behind them, leading me to assume they just don't care who is behind them. Whether they care or not, they can't see how much of a queue they are acquiring behind them.
George Brims
28-Apr-10, 01:00
I was taught to drive on an open road leaving 2 cars length between me and the car in front
Two car lengths is about right on a suburban street. On a motorway it is ridiculously little. On an open road in Caithness it is still too short.
(2 second rule)
You have to apply the two second rule properly. Actually count the two seconds as the other car passes something. And up it to three or four if it's raining. Remember that 60 mph is 88 feet per second, so the two second rule would say 176 feet to the car in front. That's a hair more than two car lengths!
dragonfly
28-Apr-10, 06:43
Two car lengths is about right on a suburban street. On a motorway it is ridiculously little. On an open road in Caithness it is still too short.
You have to apply the two second rule properly. Actually count the two seconds as the other car passes something. And up it to three or four if it's raining. Remember that 60 mph is 88 feet per second, so the two second rule would say 176 feet to the car in front. That's a hair more than two car lengths!
thanks for the maths ;) never was good at it at school and my memory is stretching back 30 years to when I learned to drive so I might have been told all the bits you provided above however the point I am making is that a lot of drivers do not drive with due care and do not leave appropriate space between them and the car in front to allow safe overtaking for drivers behind them.
And the majority of caravanners these days tow with 4x4's so have the pulling power needed for uphills
thankfully we no longer own a caravan as I would hate to inconvenience anyone in arriving at their destination 2 minutes later than they would have if they did not have to overtake an inconsiderate caravan tower :confused
Drivers towing caravans are restricted by law to drive at no more than 50mph (albeit many drive faster than this).
eh? better read this: http://www.caravan-advice.co.uk/uk-speed-limits.html ;)
We've had three caravans, but I have never understood the mentality of caravan pullers who dawdle along - say the A9 Inverness to Perth, at a steady 40mph, with no intention of pulling into the bigger lay-bys.
I see other trailer-pullers carrying bikes and boats don't seem to 'hang about' - the ones with horses and animals can be fully accepted - thought since the year 'dot' that humans are not allowed in caravans whilst being pulled, so that holds no water.
'Caravanners don't slop out, they; "empty their cassette toilet" ain't that slopping out i.e. carrying a container of stuff and tipping it into another container of stuff?
Should they be taxed? yep.
I like this: "If you read the caravanning press you will find tales of other drivers behaving atrociously around caravans; pulling out of a side road in front of one, or cutting in while overtaking, just because they don’t want to get stuck behind one" And your point is?.
We've had three caravans, but I have never understood the mentality of caravan pullers who dawdle along - say the A9 Inverness to Perth, at a steady 40mph, with no intention of pulling into the bigger lay-bys.
I see other trailer-pullers carrying bikes and boats don't seem to 'hang about' - the ones with horses and animals can be fully accepted - thought since the year 'dot' that humans are not allowed in caravans whilst being pulled, so that holds no water.
I agree. We will find inconsiderate drivers driving caravans too.
'Caravanners don't slop out, they; "empty their cassette toilet" ain't that slopping out i.e. carrying a container of stuff and tipping it into another container of stuff?
Indulge me - I want to be pedantic - The definition is dependent upon the individual’s perspective of the task. For anyone who does it involuntarily, as in prison say, it may be an onerous one. However for one who sees it as a means to an end it’s just one of many housekeeping chores that one does as part of caravanning. I can’t see what’s so objectionable about the chore.
Should they be taxed? yep.
Why?? As a caravan owner I would have thought you would have appreciated that caravanners already pay for their hobby.
I like this: "If you read the caravanning press you will find tales of other drivers behaving atrociously around caravans; pulling out of a side road in front of one, or cutting in while overtaking, just because they don’t want to get stuck behind one" And your point is?.
The point is that criticisms of driving goes both ways; just as drivers of cars will complain about inconsiderate caravanners, caravanners will find just as many reasons to complain about other drivers.
There are enough caravan forums on the internet where members complain about the behaviour of other drivers. Motorbike forums carry similar complaints.
I wonder why it is that perfectly amiable people get on well with everyone until they get behind the wheel of their vehicle or sit astride their motorbike?
dragonfly
28-Apr-10, 17:11
eh? better read this: http://www.caravan-advice.co.uk/uk-speed-limits.html ;)
eh? why?? isn't that what I have wrote or should I have said 30mph for built up, 60mph for dual carriage/motorway
Type of Road Max Speed mph Max Speed km/h
Built Up Areas * 30 48
Single Carriageways 50 80
Dual Carriageways 60 96
Motorways 60 96
eh? why?? isn't that what I have wrote or should I have said 30mph for built up, 60mph for dual carriage/motorway
Type of Road Max Speed mph Max Speed km/h
Built Up Areas * 30 48
Single Carriageways 50 80
Dual Carriageways 60 96
Motorways 60 96
No need to get excited, your posting said this: "Drivers towing caravans are restricted by law to drive at no more than 50mph (albeit many drive faster than this)."
So why am I wrong to point out that caravans can be pulled at 60 mph?
dragonfly
28-Apr-10, 17:23
No need to get excited, your posting said this: "Drivers towing caravans are restricted by law to drive at no more than 50mph (albeit many drive faster than this)."
So why am I wrong to point out that caravans can be pulled at 60 mph?
but on dual carriageways/motorways I can't see caravans being a hinderance hence only referring to the speeds they are restricted to on a single carriageway
Have I hit a nerve or something?
Presume you have never been stuck behind two caravans going at 40 mph / 41.5 mph trying to overtake each other on a duel carriageway near Crubenmore Bridge on the A9 ?
Don't get me wrong, there are considerate caravaners (I think I was one). But on two occasions last year, we witnessed a caravan driver pulling over into a lay-by to let vehicles past.. he received many thankful toots - only wish others would do this more often.
Have I hit a nerve or something?
Presume you have never been stuck behind two caravans going at 40 mph / 41.5 mph trying to overtake each other on a duel carriageway near Crubenmore Bridge on the A9 ?
Oh don't you just wish you had a girt dod o' wood mounted across the front of your car so you could give them a shove. Those are the kind of drivers who give caravanners a bad name [disgust].
dragonfly
28-Apr-10, 19:44
no nerve hit, just batting back my answers the points you raised regarding my posts and at no point did I suggest you were wrong to point out that caravans can be pulled at 60 mph, I just said I couldn't see them being a big hinderence on dual carriageways etc meaning as opposed to single carriageways
I may well have been held up by something slower than me overtaking when I wanted to but it never bothered me that much that I can remember the exact spot it happened at, to me getting there safely is more important than getting there quickly but I am sure my husband would disagree as he reckons I have a lead foot!
I was dawdling along at 60 this evening bringing the dogs back from a walk. Was passed by a stripey Fiester doing about a ton. 2 miles later I pulled up behind him at roadworks. It’s often not worth it. You don't save any time and you use a lot more fuel. Having said that if I had been in something other than the Astra Diesel Estate I might well have been going a lot faster. :eek:
piratelassie
30-Apr-10, 01:39
The inconvience mentioned is mainly when caravaners selfishly cause a long tailback and have no intention of pulling in. Incidently, I wonder what percentage of them can actually reverse the damn thing.
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