abu ghraib

[pultneytooner]

FORT MEADE, Maryland (Reuters) - A U.S. Army sergeant was found guilty on Thursday of assaulting an inmate of Abu Ghraib prison with his dog, becoming the 11th soldier convicted in the scandal that President George W. Bush called the biggest mistake of the U.S. war in Iraq.

Sgt. Santos Cardona, 32, of Fullerton, California, was convicted on two out of nine counts against him -- failing to handle his dog properly and using the unmuzzled Belgian shepherd to threaten one detainee, Kamel Mizal Nayil, with a force "likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm."

Sentencing is expected on Friday for the convictions, which carry up to 3-1/2 years in prison.


Biggest mistake!
George Bush, ever the master of the understatement.:mad:

[fred]

Biggest mistake!
George Bush, ever the master of the understatement.:mad:

That will have been written by a PR man. The press conference with Tony Blair he said it at was a fix, the questions were written by a PR man and handed to friendly reporters, the answers were written by the same PR man and handed to Bush and Blair.

In 1991 after Iraq had been tricked into invading Kuwait Congress and the American people had to be tricked into allowing America to intervene. The job was given to the firm of Hill & Knowlton, they invented a story of Iraqi troops looting hospitals taking premature babies out of incubators and leaving them on the floor to die while they took the incubators back to Iraq. A 14 year old girl burst into tears as she testified before Congress that she saw it happen as she worked as a volunteer at a hospital in Kuwait, the film was broadcast across America and a nations hearts filled with hatred for the Iraqi people.

A few months later it was discovered that the entire story was fake, all the witnesses were fake, the 14 year old girl was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to America and had been in Washington when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq, the story was a complete fabrication but by then it was too late.

Now we have turned full circle, the story is that American troops have been murdering babies, murdering babies at Haditha, murdering babies at Ishaqi, shooting dead a woman in labour being rushed to hospital. This story isn't a fabrication and will give credence to the countless similar stories in the past which have been covered up and dismissed because there was no evidence.

I think there may be a few more biggest mistakes to come so that one is being put behind them.

[RandomHero]

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video?

[krieve]

I have heard about the video but never seen it thankfully.

[angela5]

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video?

Unfortunately yes, i would not advise anyone to watch one. I still feel sick to the stomach. It was pretty unexpected i don't know what i expected to see, but it sure was'nt what i did see.

[The Angel Of Death]

Unfortunately yes, i would not advise anyone to watch one. I still feel sick to the stomach. It was pretty unexpected i don't know what i expected to see, but it sure was'nt what i did see.

Snap i seen a few and expected to be one chop but its far from it turned my stomach as well and i have seen some grusom stuff as well

[pultneytooner]

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video?

You can't blame 'Iraq', as a whole for what some extremist, murdering, sub-humans are doing to people they have kidnapped.
I am talking about certain members of the american army and possibly some higher up the food chain who are supposed to come from a so-called civilized country and are there to bring so-called freedom from oppression, not, another form of oppression under the veil of democracy. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[George Brims]

Now Fred there has been a lot of deception and outright lying on the part of the Bush administration(s), but where on earth do you get the idea that "Iraq had been tricked into invading Kuwait"???

As Ricky Ricardo used to say to Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

[_Ju_]

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video?


What about the saying that two wrongs do not make a right?

[fred]

Now Fred there has been a lot of deception and outright lying on the part of the Bush administration(s), but where on earth do you get the idea that "Iraq had been tricked into invading Kuwait"???

As Ricky Ricardo used to say to Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

America assured Iraq that while they wouldn't exactly approve of Iraq using military action to settle their differences with Kuwait they remained neutral in border disputes between OPEC countries, they didn't have any defence agreements with Kuwait and had no reason to intervene.

At the same time the CIA were telling Kuwait not to give an inch in any diplomatic negotiations to settle the disputes and they'd back them all the way.

Iraq was stitched up.


We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late '60s. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.

April Glaspie, American Ambasador to Iraq, to Saddam Hussein

[landmarker]

Snap i seen a few and expected to be one chop but its far from it turned my stomach as well and i have seen some grusom stuff as well

Sick comments. I would never ever watch one of these videos. A man tried to show me one on his mobile phone once, he desisted when I threatened to punch his lights out. To watch more than once beggars belief. Am I the only one to think you are sick? You're avatar is strange enough and as you admit to watching 'some gruesome stuff' I have little reaosn to revise my opinion.

People who want to watch others having their heads hacked off are perverted. What the hell did you expect, a single guillotine like slice?You must lack imagination to need such graphic and grisly illustratiions.

landmarker

[RandomHero]

Because it is morbid curiousity. It is a horrible sight to see but I feel to understand what kind of people we are fighting i needed to see it. If people don't want to see it then that's fine. But there is nothing 'wrong' with the people who do.

[fred]

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video?

There have been atrocities committed by both sides in this war as there are in any war, this is why going to war should always be a last resort when everything else has been tried and failed. Of all war crimes there is one which is worse than all the others by far because it is the cause of every other crime, that is the crime of starting the war, the act of aggression which leads to all the other attrocities.

Iraq didn't invade America, Iraq didn't invade Britain, every one of the countless atrocities I read about every day, Abu Ghraib, roadside bombs, the murder of children the beheadings they all go back to one root cause, the decision to invade Iraq, a decision based on lies.

[fred]

Because it is morbid curiousity. It is a horrible sight to see but I feel to understand what kind of people we are fighting i needed to see it. If people don't want to see it then that's fine. But there is nothing 'wrong' with the people who do.

If you want to understand what sort of people we're fighting then just read what they have to say, here is one of the insurgents saying why he became an insurgent.


"When the occupation forces entered Baghdad, they killed my brother in front of my eyes. He was wounded and bleeding but the occupation forces didn't allow me to save him. When I tried to save him they began shooting at me, and after a few minutes my brother died. After that I swore to fight them to the death."

Do you understand now? Just an ordinary person like the American soldiers are just ordinary people till someone teaches them to hate.

[The Angel Of Death]

Because it is morbid curiousity. It is a horrible sight to see but I feel to understand what kind of people we are fighting i needed to see it. If people don't want to see it then that's fine. But there is nothing 'wrong' with the people who do.
Spot on curiosity


You're avatar is strange enough
I might add the same for your avatar as well each to there own as they say one man's passion is anothers poison etc

[landmarker]

Spot on curiosity


I might add the same for your avatar as well each to there own as they say one man's passion is anothers poison etc

Fair comment. My avatar is meant to be self deprecating and mildly amusing.
Yours, allied with your nickname seems set to disconcert. If anyone is disconcerted by my horned photo or my pseudonym then I apologise.

I'm just a middle aged bloke pretending to be a barmy looking viking. What's your excuse?

[JAWS]

Remember, the media feel safe in the company of our forces and are able to film as they wish.
When they are not with them the excuse becomes that the area is not safe to visit.
When they can visit and film they are only allowed to go where they are taken. Has any Terrorist Organisation allowed the Media free range to show what it wishes?
When did a Terrorist Organisation ever allow the World's Media to give a blow by blow report of it's System of Justice?
The Terrorist Organisation would offer the "Weasel Words" that all Violence should be Removed from the System in order to excuse them continuing in the same way!

Only the honest are stupid enough to allow the World's Media to see how they operate.

The story is years old and well passed it's Sell-by Date. It almost ranks with the assassination of Georgy Markov as being current.

[RandomHero]

If you want to understand what sort of people we're fighting then just read what they have to say, here is one of the insurgents saying why he became an insurgent.



Do you understand now? Just an ordinary person like the American soldiers are just ordinary people till someone teaches them to hate.


Propeganda.

[pultneytooner]

Define terrorist.
Are these 'insurgents', 'terrorists', fighting a far superior invading force by any means available?
If our own country was invaded by a superior army would we we not also, fight them with any means at our disposal?
Were the french resistance freedom fighters, guerrillas or terrorists, terms only separated by a value judgement?

[JAWS]

Define terrorist.
Are these 'insurgents', 'terrorists', fighting a far superior invading force by any means available?
If our own country was invaded by a superior army would we we not also, fight them with any means at our disposal?
Were the french resistance freedom fighters, guerrillas or terrorists, terms only separated by a value judgement?
Did the French Resistance Freedom Fighters deliberately blow up French women and children to make a political point?
Did any of the Resistance Groups in the Second World War resort to such tactics?
None of them, not even the most "politically motivated", set out to terrorise the people of their own Country in order to gain their objectives.

The "Freedom Fighter" directs his animosity towards an outside occupier, which I am willing to accept may well include members of our armed services, however painful I might find it. A Terrorist does not care who he kills providing his view alone prevails.

A Freedom Fighter wishes an outside influence to be removed. A Terrorist simply wishes to terrorise people into accepting that his views should prevail above all others.

To equate the Resistance Fighters of World War Two with people who deliberately attack women and children for no other means than to feed their own political desires I find a despicable concept hardly worthy of consideration.

[The Angel Of Death]

Yours, allied with your nickname seems set to disconcert. If anyone is disconcerted by my horned photo or my pseudonym then I apologise.

I'm just a middle aged bloke pretending to be a barmy looking viking. What's your excuse?
Simply because i like it i dont care if anyone doesnt like it it was what i liked and picked if we were all the same the world would be boring wouldnt it

If it was offencive then no doubt i would have to have taken it down long ago wouldnt it ???

Next it will be beacuse i like and play violent games maybe i will be running around later on with a hammer and screwdriver on bridge streen killing folk just like all the pc mob tell us ;)

Its a picture and a name whats the harm in that ???

[pultneytooner]

Did the French Resistance Freedom Fighters deliberately blow up French women and children to make a political point?
Did any of the Resistance Groups in the Second World War resort to such tactics?
None of them, not even the most "politically motivated", set out to terrorise the people of their own Country in order to gain their objectives.

The "Freedom Fighter" directs his animosity towards an outside occupier, which I am willing to accept may well include members of our armed services, however painful I might find it. A Terrorist does not care who he kills providing his view alone prevails.

A Freedom Fighter wishes an outside influence to be removed. A Terrorist simply wishes to terrorise people into accepting that his views should prevail above all others.

To equate the Resistance Fighters of World War Two with people who deliberately attack women and children for no other means than to feed their own political desires I find a despicable concept hardly worthy of consideration.
Any occupying or colonial power would label resistance to its occupation as terrorism.
Exactly who was equating the french resistance with people who attack women and children in iraq, don't try to pin that label on me?
I was of course refering to those whos targets are military in nature.
Where do american soldiers murdering the innocent under the guise of collateral damage come into your definition?


A Freedom Fighter wishes an outside influence to be removed. A Terrorist simply wishes to terrorise people into accepting that his views should prevail above all others.

Quite correct but do you believe such people do not exist in iraq?

[landmarker]

Its a picture and a name whats the harm in that ???
Couple them both with the confession that you freely watch people being beheaded and I might say you're not the kind of person I'd invite for tea.

You're probably a very nice chap though and I'm being overly judgemental.

[JAWS]

Define terrorist.
If our own country was invaded by a superior army would we we not also, fight them with any means at our disposal?
Were the french resistance freedom fighters, guerrillas or terrorists, terms only separated by a value judgement?
I rather think the above speaks for itself. I would suspect that even the Germans who were posted to France, Belgium, Norway, Holland and other Countries would be able to distinguish between a "Resistance Fighter" and a "Terrorist".

You posed the question, I provided an answer. The "Resistance Freedom Fighters" of World War Two did not use public beheadings as a form of persuasion, nor did they slaughter innocent women and children from their own Countries to attract attention to themselves and their political beliefs.

[fred]

Propeganda.

There you are then, you didn't want to understand at all, you couldn't care less why atrocities happen.

The only why you want to know about is that there are "people like us" who are good, what we do arn't atrocities we've always a good excuse and there are "people like them" who are evil murderers without conscience.

It might come as a bit of a shock to you but most Muslims think exactly the same way you do, the people of Russia thought the same in the Stalin years and the people of Germany and Japan thought the same way in WWII, the French thought the same while their troops murdered Algerians, the Israelies believed it as they mowed down Palestinians and the Americans believed it as they dropped nuclear bombs on civilian targets. Infact the citizens of every country in the world have this overwhelming belief in "people like us" who can do no wrong and "people like them" who are evil every last soldier and every last suicide bomber believes it.

Understand that and you'll understand why.

[Rheghead]

most Muslims think exactly the same way you do.

That is democracy and that is why we are onto a winner.

[pultneytooner]

Couple them both with the confession that you freely watch people being beheaded and I might say you're not the kind of person I'd invite for tea.

You're probably a very nice chap though and I'm being overly judgemental.
I have got to agree, watching beheading videos is pretty strange behaviour.

[pultneytooner]

I rather think the above speaks for itself. I would suspect that even the Germans who were posted to France, Belgium, Norway, Holland and other Countries would be able to distinguish between a "Resistance Fighter" and a "Terrorist".

You posed the question, I provided an answer. The "Resistance Freedom Fighters" of World War Two did not use public beheadings as a form of persuasion, nor did they slaughter innocent women and children from their own Countries to attract attention to themselves and their political beliefs. Do all iraqi insurgents use beheading as a persuasion to their political beliefs, I think not.
Then again, all iraqis are evil and need to be exterminated, eh?

[JAWS]

Do all iraqi insurgents use beheading as a persuasion to their political beliefs, I think not.
Then again, all iraqis are evil and need to be exterminated, eh?
How on Earth do you arrive at that conclusion?
Harold Shipman was a Doctor who murdered people so all Doctors are Murderers?
Wow, what next? Harold Shipman was a human being so all human beings are murderers?
Well, I did swat a fly yesterday if that counts as murder.

[fred]

That is democracy and that is why we are onto a winner.

We already lost and so did you.

[pultneytooner]

How on Earth do you arrive at that conclusion?
Harold Shipman was a Doctor who murdered people so all Doctors are Murderers?
Wow, what next? Harold Shipman was a human being so all human beings are murderers?
Well, I did swat a fly yesterday if that counts as murder. The thread is about yet another american soldier being court martialed for the crime of torturing prisoners at abu ghraib prison to which random hero retorted with

Iraq are doing alot worse to their prisoners.

Ever seen a beheading video? Yes this is a terrorist act of the vilest nature, kidnapping people for a percieved benefit to their own agenda, whatever that may be then beheading them when they don't achieve their aims.
What I take issue with is the 'iraq' bit of that statement when infact some are only targeting a superior military force occupying his/her country with any means at their disposal.
Not all insurgents are terrorists but the general consensus is that they are.
This is wrong as some are exactly like the maquis of france and if people believe otherwise then they are very deluded and the american propaganda machine is doing it's job very well.


nor did they slaughter innocent women and children from their own Countries to attract attention to themselves and their political beliefs. American soldiers are guilty of the murdering and torture of innocent iraqi women, children and men.
Where do you class them?
As I've already said, 'biggest mistake', what an understatement from the man voted by his own people as being the worst president in their living history.
As the worlds natural resources run out expect more and bloodier wars as the more powerful countries refuse to bargain with those that they can railroad into submission.
Beware the petro-dollar, it will be the worlds downfall.

[JAWS]

Pultneytowner, you nicely turn your point around.
You liken the beheading of hostages and the slaughter of women and children to the acts carried out by Resistance Fighters in World War Two.

I would suspect that those Resistance Fighters would have been horrified at the thought of such a comparison. They would have considered such behaviour as beneath contempt.

Even after the slaughter of 245 women and 207 children, at Oradour-sur-Glane on 10 June, 1944 the Resistance did not resort to such tactics.

You quite rightly point out that there are American Soldiers undergoing Courts Martial for the murder of innocent women and children and if that is true then I would hope that they are suitably punished.

I await with much interest for the time those organising the Terrorism take similar action. It is something I have not seen so far in my lifetime and in all truth never expect to see.

[fred]

This is wrong as some are exactly like the maquis of france and if people believe otherwise then they are very deluded and the american propaganda machine is doing it's job very well.


Actually the maquis wern't all saints themselves. Especially the Communists who helped the Germans till 1941 then changed sides when Stalin did.

Then at the end of the war they rounded up their political opponents and shot them claiming they had been collaborators.

[pultneytooner]

Pultneytowner, you nicely turn your point around.
You liken the beheading of hostages and the slaughter of women and children to the acts carried out by Resistance Fighters in World War Two.
Wrong, I never likened the french resistance fighters to people who behead hostages and slaughter innocent women and children.
I liken those iraqis that attack military targets to be similar to the maquis of france.
Bit of a difference there or is this not going to be accepted by yourself?
I am sure, jaws, that an intelligent man such as yourself will be aware of the workings of the petro-dollar and if this were ever to be allowed to change then it could quite possibly bring the U.S economy to it's knees.
This will never be allowed to happen!