Did the Army get it badly wrong?

[Gronnuck]

:eek: With the defence budget already fully stretched could the MOD have handled this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7582610/Single-mother-soldier-within-her-rights-to-miss-training-over-childcare.html) issue better?

[ducati]

Yes they did, senior officers need to have advisers to remind them what happens in "real" life on a regular basis. :roll:

[The Drunken Duck]

No. They got it right. She is a waste of a Uniform.

When you sign on the dotted line that commitment comes first, if she cant fulfill that role due to whatever circumstance then she is dead weight the Army can ill afford. I know people who have been discharged for being an "administrative burden" because their personal issues affected their performance in their role. Her childcare arrangments are her problem but her saying that she misses parades because she cant get her sister in the country to help out is rubbish. If she cant manage to do the job she signed up for then it's goodbye and tough. Service life requires that it comes first, if you cant hack that then you are in the wrong job.

Fathers in the service dont get special treatment so why should Mothers ?? I missed out on a lot of Resettlement I was entitled to, as well days off to go and see my daughter, because two girls in my section were pregnant at the same time. They frequently came into work, complained that they didnt "feel right" and got signed off. My ex worked in a more physically strenous job and did so until she was 8 and a half months gone, these two couldn't sit at a desk and push buttons. I was sick of getting phoned to come into work and cover for them. But I just had to get on with it.

[ducati]

No. They got it right. She is a waste of a Uniform.

When you sign on the dotted line that commitment comes first, if she cant fulfill that role due to whatever circumstance then she is dead weight the Army can ill afford. I know people who have been discharged for being an "administrative burden" because their personal issues affected their performance in their role. Her childcare arrangments are her problem but her saying that she misses parades because she cant get her sister in the country to help out is rubbish. If she cant manage to do the job she signed up for then it's goodbye and tough. Service life requires that it comes first, if you cant hack that then you are in the wrong job.

Fathers in the service dont get special treatment so why should Mothers ?? I missed out on a lot of Resettlement I was entitled to, as well days off to go and see my daughter, because two girls in my section were pregnant at the same time. I just had to get on with it.

Yes I agree with the above, I was referring to getting in a position to comprehensively lose an employment tribunal. Basics, such as providing the same facilities to commonwealth, as to British Soldiers.

[The Drunken Duck]

Yes I agree with the above, I was referring to getting in a position to comprehensively lose an employment tribunal. Basics, such as providing the same facilities to commonwealth, as to British Soldiers.

Well she is claiming that her "special" needs were not being met, what were they exactly ??, why is she so special compared to the other single mothers in uniform who do both ??. She seem to have spat the dummy and left because she "assumed" she was going to be discharged and because her sister could only get into the country for six months. Joining the services and than expecting your familiy to come first every time is just not an option. Her claims sound fishy to me as every camp I was on had at least once creche and there are dedicated people like Families Officers to help with issues like childcare. Bases are self contained little worlds, they have to be. I worked with a Tornado Navigator who was also a single mum, if she could manage to juggle that very demanding role AND her daughter then so could this girl.

Just noticed that she has won her claim on race and sex discrimination grounds. The world's gone mad. I might put a claim in then for the fact that I had to miss my resettlment because I had to work to cover for pregnant women .. no wait .. silly me .. I am white, male and hetero, these laws dont apply to me.

[ducati]

Just noticed that she has won her claim on race and sex discrimination grounds. The world's gone mad. I might put a claim in then for the fact that I had to miss my resettlment because I had to work to cover for pregnant women .. no wait .. silly me .. I am white, male and hetero, these laws dont apply to me.

Yep, you have no chance pal ![disgust]

[John Little]

Yeah - honky!

[The Angel Of Death]

I completly agree i mean other others manage it in fact i remember a bit in the paper the other day about a RAF pilot who was applauded for juggling her kids life and career she managed it without any problems

I mean its like them people who join up and then dont want to go till war isnt thats like becoming a mechanic and refusing to fix cars because your hands get covered in oil

[Phill]

I've not got the full details on this, just skirted through the link.

Maybe the army have handled it wrongly, rightly!

'We' have many, many Rights. Far too many 'Rights' sometimes, it is getting very pythonesque.

STAN/LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

REG: But... you can't have babies.

STAN/LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.

By highlighting this fact through a test case it shows what a load of BS it all is.
They now need to go to Brown (or whichever bunch of muppets we get next month) and tell them they need to get a grip.
It's real life, the armed forces don't do 9-5 and sensible breaks for tiffin when in combat with the Taliban.
What next, Duvet Days?

"Army chiefs could have liaised with the UK Border Agency to have the usual immigration rules relaxed, it concluded."
I doubt this, and if they can do it then I want the UKBA to relax some rules too.

"The landmark rulings are embarrassing for the Army, which must now consider the implications for its recruitment policy."
Embarrassing for the Gov't, how do we have a reliable 24/7 fighting force that is fair and equal?
They make the rules the forces only try and apply them.

[Phill]

Yeah - honky!

You can't say that, Honky!

[John Little]

Why not Whitey?

[Phill]

Don't be dissin me Peckerwood!

[John Little]

Yo Blood! Homebwoy!

[The Drunken Duck]

Why not Whitey?

Because that offends the Albino minority John. And you dont want them on a protest march. It looks like a mass haunting and the kids get frightened.

But the Albinos do march at this "discrimination" and some non white Ethnic Minorities get upset at this mass march by overtly "white" folks. They intrepret it as a display of white power, brand it "racist and oppressive" and plan to hold their own march.

Meanwhile the Mothers have decided that these scary looking white men must be Paedophiles and they plan to hold a march demanding these men are kept off the streets "to protect the kids"

Then the Albino population get upset again at being forced off the streets by these women, accuse them of being "sexist and insane" and also counter accuse the non white Ethnic Minorities of being "racist" and marching against them. The non white Ethnic Monorities march anyway.

These marches comes to the attention of the Muslim Community who decide to have their own march. They really arent bothered about these issues but they are just upset that no one phoned them when there was a chance to get upset about something. They turn up holding placards saying "We dont know what were upset about .. Yet"

At this point the Feminists notice the accusations of sexism against the mothers by the albino's and decide to have a march themselves because they want to raise the issue that no one seems interested about the female side of things, this causes chaos in the ranks of the women marching against the "albino paedophiles" who are torn between the two issues. The feminists also get upset at the Muslim men who have not allowed the women to march. This results in their placards being re-written with slogans suggesting they should be at home ironing and making dinner. Chaos increases.

This chaos is then interrupted by the Gay Lesbian and Transgender crowd protesting against all the other participants because none of them have mentioned their Gay, Lesbian and Transgender coleagues. Claims of Homophobia abound.

Meanwhile a group of white heterosexual men stand at the roadside watching this sight and wondering what all the fuss is about .. :D

[John Little]

Gulp!

Outclassed on this one I think!:cool:

[Boozeburglar]

If the army are recruiting in the Caribbean then the conditions they offer should be the same as they offer to anyone from the UK who joins up.

The policy is to encourage a family member to move in with anyone who becomes a single parent whilst in the service.

Children are children for more than six months.

Seems clear to me they treated her in a discriminatory way.

[Metalattakk]

Because that offends the Albino minority John. And you dont want them on a protest march. It looks like a mass haunting and the kids get frightened.

But the Albinos do march at this "discrimination" and some non white Ethnic Minorities get upset at this mass march by overtly "white" folks. They intrepret it as a display of white power, brand it "racist and oppressive" and plan to hold their own march.

Meanwhile the Mothers have decided that these scary looking white men must be Paedophiles and they plan to hold a march demanding these men are kept off the streets "to protect the kids"

Then the Albino population get upset again at being forced off the streets by these women, accuse them of being "sexist and insane" and also counter accuse the non white Ethnic Minorities of being "racist" and marching against them. The non white Ethnic Monorities march anyway.

These marches comes to the attention of the Muslim Community who decide to have their own march. They really arent bothered about these issues but they are just upset that no one phoned them when there was a chance to get upset about something. They turn up holding placards saying "We dont know what were upset about .. Yet"

At this point the Feminists notice the accusations of sexism against the mothers by the albino's and decide to have a march themselves because they want to raise the issue that no one seems interested about the female side of things, this causes chaos in the ranks of the women marching against the "albino paedophiles" who are torn between the two issues. The feminists also get upset at the Muslim men who have not allowed the women to march. This results in their placards being re-written with slogans suggesting they should be at home ironing and making dinner. Chaos increases.

This chaos is then interrupted by the Gay Lesbian and Transgender crowd protesting against all the other participants because none of them have mentioned their Gay, Lesbian and Transgender coleagues. Claims of Homophobia abound.

Meanwhile a group of white heterosexual men stand at the roadside watching this sight and wondering what all the fuss is about .. :D


Hmmm, with all this marching going on it looks like people are gonna need an awful lot of shoes. Cobblers, I say. :D

[Tubthumper]

Wrong call [I jumped on the outrage bus and completely misread the article first time round].
Apparently officers failed to understand that their function as an employer is not exclusively based on war-fighting ability. But perhaps (conspiracy hat on) this case exposes the failure to address the rights of those who have to take up the slack for people who choose to make themselves unavailable for service, or who only make themselves available when it suits them. The army's seeking a way to get rid of those who don't want to play proper.

[Boozeburglar]

You can bet that the episode of 'failing to attend a parade' was the final straw as believe it or not the army usually tends to be pretty accommodating for family-based problems.
This is part of the Army's drive to be inclusive: They're trying to take on their fair share of lazy benefit-grabbing endlessly reproducing chavs, but failed to understand that they will do the absolute minimum and claim everything (including race and sex discriminiation) before having to be forcibly removed. It's a shame they had to go the Carribean to recruit this one, an indication of just how lazy our own underclass has got.
The shame is that money is spent on this that could be spent on decent kit, and that others have no doubt had to do the duties she signed up for.
No the Army didn't call it wrong. I bet that when the case actually comes to appeal, the MOD will present a lot of evidence to flatten the credibility of this young lady. And then it will serve as a precedent for other chancers. I wonder if she has another sister who is an ex-lawyer.
But it does damages the case for race & sex equality.

I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusions you seem to on the basis of the information that is currently out there on this case.

[Tubthumper]

I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusions you seem to on the basis of the information that is currently out there on this case.
You're right, I read the article wrong, in a rush. I'll change it.

[The Drunken Duck]

Had a look on the Army Rumour Service about this topic. she was recruited in 2001 and had her daughter in 2005, she left the Army in 2008. There are guys posting on the thread such as a Warrant Officer who is a male single parent and he isnt getting "special" treatment. She was apparently on light duties and excused night duties becasue she was a mother (duties her colleagues would have to have covered) and was non deployable. So not alot of use to the people paying her wages.

So she was essentially working a 9-5 Mon-Friday job then and maintains that the Army let her down because she couldnt have her sister in the country as a carer. I am sure there were other Childcare options available, every base I was ever on had at least one daycare creche. I fail to see how applying civilian employment law in cases of the Forces can even apply, she wasnt a civilian and the military are paid to be available 24 hours a day. The EU working directive doesnt apply either as far as I am aware. Playing the race card is a bit low, cant see what her colour has to do with it, although it seems to have worked.

What will be interesting now is to see what happens to the recruitment process, the Army (and the Navy and RAF) will perhaps not want to employ single mothers in case they turn out like this waster. Then THAT will be called sexist etc etc and eventually we will end up with a military force that is "embracing diversity" and mostly non deployable.

[rich]

In the USA the most deadly insult one male can hurl at another is:"YOUR MOTHER WEARS ARMY BOOTS!"
Clears the bar, every time, or so I'm told....

[bekisman]

My daughter in Law had a young Son before her previous marriage broke down. She was also a Cpl in the army, but managed quite well to juggle her duties.. most can, a very few can't...
At least it was not the amount she was after:
The former corporal, who is from the Caribbean island of St Vincent, had reportedly been seeking £1m compensation.
A single-mother soldier who won a discrimination case against the Ministry of Defence has been awarded £17,016 by an employment tribunal.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8625446.stm

[ss.sv650]

not many women in the army in my day, but the ones who serve today must be appluaded for doing so and those with kids for doing so and managin the kids as well and no the Army was not wrong kick out (ok before you start i know she was'nt kicked out) the wast of space, But now give the job to sombody who wants it and can do it

strong i know but how else are we to support the already massivly stretched military

[northener]

Unfortunately, in the Forces, every now and then someone pops up with a woeful tale about how they are being discriminated against/bullied/sidelined/forced to do something that they object to.

As a few have pointed out on here, the majority of people just crack on with the job they signed up to do. But the odd one begins a very public whining campaign to cover up their own inability to fit in. I'll bet that if you talked to any of these individuals' colleagues, in the majority of cases, you'd find out that they were a complete waste of space.

I don't know if the Forces still have the opt out clause 'SNLR' (Services No Longer Required) or not. Certainly up until the mid-80's it was used to boot out any rubbish without having particularly explain anything in detail.

[bekisman]

I don't know if the Forces still have the opt out clause 'SNLR' (Services No Longer Required) or not. Certainly up until the mid-80's it was used to boot out any rubbish without having particularly explain anything in detail.

The army discharges about 3% of soldiers every year for 'service no longer required'. (good) ;)

[Anfield]

The army discharges about 3% of soldiers every year for 'service no longer required'. (good) ;)


Pity we can not not do the same with MP's and other public service officials

[bekisman]

Pity we can not not do the same with MP's and other public service officials

Isn't it some pie in the sky idea of the Lib dems? "We will give you the right to sack MPs who have broken the rules. We would introduce a recall system so that constituents could force a byelection for any MP found responsible for serious wrongdoing." :lol: