View Full Version : Just when you thought that MP's could not get any sleazier
Just when you thought that MP's could not get any sleazier, it emerges that 3 of the 4 MP's who face criminal charges in relation to the expenses scandal, are to receive Legal Aid paid for by the British tax-payers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8616261.stm
In the run up to the election, expect more "burying" of news that the New Labour government would sooner hush up.
Just when you thought that MP's could not get any sleazier, it emerges that 3 of the 4 MP's who face criminal charges in relation to the expenses scandal, are to receive Legal Aid paid for by the British tax-payers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8616261.stm
In the run up to the election, expect more "burying" of news that the New Labour government would sooner hush up.
When I saw the title of the thread I thought you were talking about this story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/11/labour-cancer-postcards-vince-cable
Far more worrying in my opinion. Using a commercial firm which uses databases to profile people who are likely to have had cancer recently then targeting them with scare stories in personalised election campaign cards.
How low can you get.
The Drunken Duck
12-Apr-10, 18:19
Both issues are extremely worrying.
The MP's first tried to claim Parliamentary privelege and make out they were above the law, but how they have now managed to get legal aid on their salary is beyond me. When I was on about 20k I was not entitled to it.
As for the point you made Fred I have no doubt the standard cliches of "lessons will be learned" and "procedures will be tightened" will be trotted out soon.
Parliament is rotten to the core, and those who sit in the chambers are worse in my view. I think that Politicians have lost the trust of the people and I dont think they will ever get it back.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8616261.stm
In the run up to the election, expect more "burying" of news that the New Labour government would sooner hush up.
Its hardly buried, its on the BBC :lol:
have these mp's heard of clawback?
maybe, before applying for legal aid, they should put some thought to that.
like any other member of the public.
riggerboy
13-Apr-10, 07:54
now let me see if i can get this right
our MP`s ie the government has been stealing from government us (the taxpayer)
they have been charged by the police(funded by us) for stealing from the government, (funded by us)
the cost of which is a helluva amount,
the courts (funded by us) have told them that they can have legal aid ( funded by us )
so the long and short of it is,
the government is taking itself to court for stealing from us and making us pay for the privelage of watching them,
is that right
that is bloody unbelievable
thats it i`m voting for mickey mouse i`d almost bet he has a government watch
now let me see if i can get this right
our MP`s ie the government has been stealing from government us (the taxpayer)
they have been charged by the police(funded by us) for stealing from the government, (funded by us)
the cost of which is a helluva amount,
the courts (funded by us) have told them that they can have legal aid ( funded by us )
so the long and short of it is,
the government is taking itself to court for stealing from us and making us pay for the privelage of watching them,
is that right
that is bloody unbelievable
thats it i`m voting for mickey mouse i`d almost bet he has a government watch
What's goin' on RB, you not hangin' them???
I woz gonna vote for you but if yer goin' all wishy washy liberal.....
riggerboy
13-Apr-10, 10:52
What's goin' on RB, you not hangin' them???
I woz gonna vote for you but if yer goin' all wishy washy liberal.....
i`m waiting for someone to tell me if i`m right or not, if i`m right then the gallows will be prepared Mr pierpoint will be employed to carry out his normal duties and we shall have a hanging
hear ye hear ye hear ye
All MP`s will be from this day until they are no more, be hung by the neck until they are dead dead dead,
hang em high hang em high hang em high
hang em high hang em high hang em high
hang em high hang em high hang em high
Boozeburglar
13-Apr-10, 11:52
I don't see that being an MP should mean you cannot have the same help anyone else would qualify for if facing the possibility of imprisonment.
The option of Legal Aid would be there for anyone else in a similar position.
We either have a Legal Aid system or we do not.
I don't think means testing would necessarily have meant they would not qualify.
Unfortunately it seems the authorities will cite this as a reason to remove the automatic right to Legal Aid.
riggerboy
13-Apr-10, 13:30
I don't see that being an MP should mean you cannot have the same help anyone else would qualify for if facing the possibility of imprisonment.
The option of Legal Aid would be there for anyone else in a similar position.
We either have a Legal Aid system or we do not.
I don't think means testing would necessarily have meant they would not qualify.
Unfortunately it seems the authorities will cite this as a reason to remove the automatic right to Legal Aid.
the legal aid system is set out for those who cannot afford a lawyer themselves i cannot forsee any MP having difficulty affording one
But legal aid is for the financially impoverished, surely. These guys were paid huge salaries. Where is that money?
But legal aid is for the financially impoverished, surely. These guys were paid huge salaries. Where is that money?
Cayman Island, IOM, Jersey......Who knows?
Its hardly buried, its on the BBC :lol:
1st of many I am sure:
Once again, a bombshell that could cause huge financial hardship to tens of thousands of claimants has been dropped, virtually unnoticed, by a government minister.
The shock plans, for ‘simplifying’ the work capability assessment for employment and support allowance (ESA) include docking points from amputees who can lift and carry with their stumps. Claimants with speech problems who can write a sign saying, for example, ‘The office is on fire!’ will score no points for speech and deaf claimants who can read the sign will lose all their points for hearing.
Meanwhile, for ‘health and safety reasons’ all points scored for problems with bending and kneeling are to be abolished and claimants who have difficulty walking can be assessed using imaginary wheelchairs.
These changes, and many more, have already been approved by the secretary of state for work and pensions but have not yet passed into law. They will affect both ESA claimants and the 1.5 million incapacity benefits claimants waiting to be assessed for ESA.
Tubthumper
13-Apr-10, 19:59
Anfield, shall I get the Outrage Bus warmed up?
I don't see that being an MP should mean you cannot have the same help anyone else would qualify for if facing the possibility of imprisonment.
The option of Legal Aid would be there for anyone else in a similar position.
We either have a Legal Aid system or we do not.
I don't think means testing would necessarily have meant they would not qualify.
Unfortunately it seems the authorities will cite this as a reason to remove the automatic right to Legal Aid
Since when?
Anfield, shall I get the Outrage Bus warmed up?
What for? I do not receive any benefits so this story does not affect me.
I mentioned link to point out as an example of how easy it is to "bury" news when all the media is interested in the Election.
Just like how the deaths of 73 civillians in Pakistan as a result of bombing by Pakistan Army hardly got a mention.
It was also reported yesterday that US planes killed 4 civillians in the Afghan region of Kandahar,
Boozeburglar
14-Apr-10, 12:10
Since when?
I don't understand what you mean.
They are reforming the system, but it had previously been available automatically for those facing certain categories of serious criminal prosecution.
My concern is that the politicians are going to use this as an example when pushing to go further than the current reforms coming in.
What for? I do not receive any benefits so this story does not affect me.,
If youre not receiving any benefits, I take it youre working. If youre working, I take it youre paying income tax. If thats the case it does affect you.
Humerous Vegetable
14-Apr-10, 14:56
This is widely seen as the most corrupt parliament in modern times - not just in UK terms either, but globally. It makes Robert Mugabe's regime look almost honourable. Even those few MPs who weren't actually caught with their fingers in the till, were part of a set up which colluded at keeping their outrageous expenses hidden from the public, until it was leaked to the Telegraph.
How any of them have the brass neck to stand again is beyond incredible. We should start again, with a completely new set of MPs, who are not tainted by this scandal. And, before anybody says anything about inexperience and lack of know-how, the Civil Service will continue to run the country like they always have.
This is widely seen as the most corrupt parliament in modern times - not just in UK terms either, but globally. It makes Robert Mugabe's regime look almost honourable. Even those few MPs who weren't actually caught with their fingers in the till, were part of a set up which colluded at keeping their outrageous expenses hidden from the public, until it was leaked to the Telegraph.
How any of them have the brass neck to stand again is beyond incredible. We should start again, with a completely new set of MPs, who are not tainted by this scandal. And, before anybody says anything about inexperience and lack of know-how, the Civil Service will continue to run the country like they always have.
Why stop at MP's?
I would like to see the same type of disclosure about all Councillors expenses.
Tubthumper
14-Apr-10, 16:48
Fair points. Why stop at councillors though? There are probably a whole pile of people in public & private positions who dodge taxes or who stretch the credibility of the claims system.
If you really think about it, every time anyone does a job 'on the side', its diddling the country out of dosh that's desperately needed.
Is that yet another symptom of 'Broken Britain', the fact that we're all at it?
Fair points. Why stop at councillors though? There are probably a whole pile of people in public & private positions who dodge taxes or who stretch the credibility of the claims system.
If you really think about it, every time anyone does a job 'on the side', its diddling the country out of dosh that's desperately needed.
Is that yet another symptom of 'Broken Britain', the fact that we're all at it?
Don't worry about taxmany Somewhere along the line he will get his bit.
Lets suppose I get a small building job done which should be £100+vat.
The builders does job for £100 cash, so therefore I have saved the £17.50 VAT. I will most probably spend this £17.50 on other things which attract VAT, and the person who receives the said £17.50 will also, presumably, spend it so it goes on, and every time this £17.50 is spent the taxman gets his cut.
Two certainties in life, you die and you pay taxes
Lets suppose I get a small building job done which should be £100+vat.
The builders does job for £100 cash, so therefore I have saved the £17.50 VAT. I will most probably spend this £17.50 on other things which attract VAT, and the person who receives the said £17.50 will also, presumably, spend it so it goes on, and every time this £17.50 is spent the taxman gets his cut.
But yer still ripping off the taxman, instead of his £17.50 he's due you go and spend it, so you only cough up £2.28 and your diddling the taxman out of £15.22. (Technically still the original £17.50 as you can't spend the same cash twice)
Tis still tax evasion surely!
Don't worry about taxmany Somewhere along the line he will get his bit.
Lets suppose I get a small building job done which should be £100+vat.
The builders does job for £100 cash, so therefore I have saved the £17.50 VAT. I will most probably spend this £17.50 on other things which attract VAT, and the person who receives the said £17.50 will also, presumably, spend it so it goes on, and every time this £17.50 is spent the taxman gets his cut.
Two certainties in life, you die and you pay taxes
So your as big a sleaze ball as the so called MPs, your breaking the law by not paying your VAT at the correct source and correct time, if we all thought and went your black economy way the country would be in a worse state than it is now.
Evading VAT is IMHO as bad as fraudulent benefit claiming, do you advocate that also?
But yer still ripping off the taxman, instead of his £17.50 he's due you go and spend it, so you only cough up £2.28 and your diddling the taxman out of £15.22. (Technically still the original £17.50 as you can't spend the same cash twice)
Tis still tax evasion surely!
Yes, without doubt it is tax evasion but the point I was making is that taxman still gets his money.
If I paid the whole amount due including VAT the taxman would get his money when builder does his quarterly return. The scenario I outlined above still results in him getting money, but just a bit slower.
The guy who takes the builders £17.50 will also spend it, and likewise the person who he spends it with and so on all along the chain.
Yes, without doubt it is tax evasion but the point I was making is that taxman still gets his money.
If I paid the whole amount due including VAT the taxman would get his money when builder does his quarterly return. The scenario I outlined above still results in him getting money, but just a bit slower.
The guy who takes the builders £17.50 will also spend it, and likewise the person who he spends it with and so on all along the chain.
I can hear the mathmaticians reaching for their spreadsheets [lol]
So your as big a sleaze ball as the so called MPs, your breaking the law by not paying your VAT at the correct source and correct time, if we all thought and went your black economy way the country would be in a worse state than it is now.
Evading VAT is IMHO as bad as fraudulent benefit claiming, do you advocate that also?
What I outlined above is a fantasy. It is not how I live my life.
I think you will find if you did some research that more money is lost to the country from the "black economy" than what is lost to benefit fraud, and by benefit fraud, I mean benefit fraud perpetrated by an individual and not by criminal gangs
What I outlined above is a fantasy. It is not how I live my life.
I think you will find if you did some research that more money is lost to the country from the "black economy" than what is lost to benefit fraud, and by benefit fraud, I mean benefit fraud perpetrated by an individual and not by criminal gangs
Please do not presume to lecture me on the Black Economy, I spent 33 years of my life chasing and catching, and helping convict Revenue Duty Fraudsters, of many kinds, Vat Fraudsters, Excise duty Fraudsters, Customs Duty Fraudsters, and the odd Bootlegger and Drug Smuggler too.
Duty fraud and Benefit fraud to me are equally criminal, whether is is done by an individual or an organised gang.
Please do not presume to lecture me on the Black Economy, I spent 33 years of my life chasing and catching, and helping convict Revenue Duty Fraudsters, of many kinds, Vat Fraudsters, Excise duty Fraudsters, Customs Duty Fraudsters, and the odd Bootlegger and Drug Smuggler too.
Duty fraud and Benefit fraud to me are equally criminal, whether is is done by an individual or an organised gang.
We all have our crosses to bear
Yes, without doubt it is tax evasion but the point I was making is that taxman still gets his money.
No, he never gets his money. The £17.50 IS the taxmans money, by spending it compounds the problem.
If I paid the whole amount due including VAT the taxman would get his money when builder does his quarterly return. The scenario I outlined above still results in him getting money, but just a bit slower.
The guy who takes the builders £17.50 will also spend it, and likewise the person who he spends it with and so on all along the chain.
But in this chain it is the taxmans money being spent and then part of this tax gets taxed again but the £17.50 is still the taxmans.
Simples.
Boozeburglar
14-Apr-10, 22:46
Please do not presume to lecture me on the Black Economy, I spent 33 years of my life chasing and catching, and helping convict Revenue Duty Fraudsters, of many kinds, Vat Fraudsters, Excise duty Fraudsters, Customs Duty Fraudsters, and the odd Bootlegger and Drug Smuggler too.
Duty fraud and Benefit fraud to me are equally criminal, whether is is done by an individual or an organised gang.
How do you feel about the crofting community then?
Barter of goods and labour was a way of life for the Caithness crofting community.
Condemn them all will you?
No, he never gets his money. The £17.50 IS the taxmans money, by spending it compounds the problem.
But in this chain it is the taxmans money being spent and then part of this tax gets taxed again but the £17.50 is still the taxmans.
Simples.
Phil, I agree that the £17.50 is taxmans money, but what I am trying to show is a paper exercise, not economic theory.
I did a spreadsheet on this and found that after 44 transactions the taxman finally gets the whole £17.50 back.
The assumptions I made were that everyone down the line spends the money, and not put in a bank a/c or lose it down the arm of a settee.
VAT Not Paid, Vat, Balance
1 17.50 3.06 14.44
2 14.44 2.53 11.91
3 11.91 2.08 9.83
4 9.83 1.72 8.11
5 8.11 1.42 6.69
6 6.69 1.17 5.52
7 5.52 0.97 4.55
8 4.55 0.80 3.76
9 3.76 0.66 3.10
10 3.10 0.54 2.56
11 2.56 0.45 2.11
12 2.11 0.37 1.74
13 1.74 0.30 1.44
14 1.44 0.25 1.18
15 1.18 0.21 0.98
16 0.98 0.17 0.81
17 0.81 0.14 0.66
18 0.66 0.12 0.55
19 0.55 0.10 0.45
20 0.45 0.08 0.37
21 0.37 0.07 0.31
22 0.31 0.05 0.25
23 0.25 0.04 0.21
24 0.21 0.04 0.17
25 0.17 0.03 0.14
26 0.14 0.02 0.12
27 0.12 0.02 0.10
28 0.10 0.02 0.08
29 0.08 0.01 0.07
30 0.07 0.01 0.05
31 0.05 0.01 0.04
32 0.04 0.01 0.04
33 0.04 0.01 0.03
34 0.03 0.01 0.03
35 0.03 0.00 0.02
36 0.02 0.00 0.02
37 0.02 0.00 0.01
38 0.01 0.00 0.01
39 0.01 0.00 0.01
40 0.01 0.00 0.01
41 0.01 0.00 0.01
42 0.01 0.00 0.01
43 0.01 0.00 0.00
44 0.00 0.00 0.00
Vat Paid Total (middle column)17.50
No he doesn't get it back, he'll still be £17.50 short.
All you've shown is that it gets spent.
No he doesn't get it back, he'll still be £17.50 short.
All you've shown is that it gets spent.
But when I put some fuel in my car I'm charged 17.5% VAT on the full cost of the fuel when 60% of the cost of the fuel is the fuel duty. The robbing gits are charging me VAT on the tax I'm paying them.
Who are they to complain?
I disagree.
Unfortunately I could not attach actual spreadsheet to my post so figures and headings have been C&P and thus are not formatted in correct manner.
The figures I quoted are based on everyone in chain spending the money they receive at a seller, who is registered for VAT, so that VAT is applied at every level in chain.
Don't forget this is a theoretical scenario. I would not want our resident Customs & Excise guy to come out of retirement and call his mates at C&E!
Don't forget this is a theoretical scenario. I would not want our resident Customs & Excise guy to come out of retirement and call his mates at C&E!
My former colleagues are no longer HM C&E, but HM Revenue & Customs, a much more nasty bunch [lol]
I disagree.
Unfortunately I could not attach actual spreadsheet to my post so figures and headings have been C&P and thus are not formatted in correct manner.
The figures I quoted are based on everyone in chain spending the money they receive at a seller, who is registered for VAT, so that VAT is applied at every level in chain
I see your logic, but the original £17.50 belongs to the taxman. Just because it then gets spent and taxed again doesn't recoup that 'loss'.
My former colleagues are no longer HM C&E, but HM Revenue & Customs, a much more nasty bunch [lol]
Nah, they're a pretty good bunch, even when they send nasty letters demanding money (C18) they are very pleasant.
My former colleagues are no longer HM C&E, but HM Revenue & Customs, a much more nasty bunch [lol]
A question for you Golach, which I think I know the answer to.
Would I be correct in thinking that the massive rise in the importation of heroin was caused by Thatchers decision to reduce the number of Customs officials in the early/mid 80s
A question for you Golach, which I think I know the answer to.
Would I be correct in thinking that the massive rise in the importation of heroin was caused by Thatchers decision to reduce the number of Customs officials in the early/mid 80s
To be honest I have no idea, all I know about Frau Thatcher is that she was the stealer of childrens free milk at school, and she inflicted the Poll Tax on Scotland.[disgust]
To be honest I have no idea, all I know about Frau Thatcher is that she was the stealer of childrens free milk at school, and she inflicted the Poll Tax on Scotland.[disgust]
There used to be a saying:
"Cheap Heroin, Thatchers answer to unemployment"
~~Tides~~
16-Apr-10, 00:18
With regards to the original topic, if they are found guilty they have to pay back legal aid. So the tax payer has nothing to worry about.
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