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I heard today that a bunch of climbers on a Mount Everest jolly just climbed passed a dying man on their way up Mount Everest and did not try to rescue him or comforted him. No attempt was made at all. Climbers are saying that it was not possible so they are trying to defend their decision.
Could you walk past a dying man no matter the difficult circumstances?
Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/23/wsharp23.xml)
My initial reaction is this:
In the emergency services many men and women will risk their lives to save one life.
This climbing group wouldn't even risk the success of their own expedition.
weell.... how can anyone have an opinion on this if they've never attempted anything as strenuous as climbing Everest?
secondly, the guy who was struggling took the risk climbing there anyways... and probably knew fully well his journey could end in death or injury.
why should people risk their lives then expect somebody else to risk theres for them.. like you see in the hills of Scotland all the time?
George Brims
26-May-06, 00:34
Sir Edmund Hillary has spoken out about this, and he's horrified. These people put their personal ambition to climb Everest ahead of the other guy's life. Just think about that. Letting someone die because they wanted to be able to boast about climbing the damn mountain. Time was when people put others ahead of their own petty needs. Despicable. It makes not a damn bit of difference to me whether the guy who died could have been saved. If I had been there and found someone in that state, my climb would have been over that very minute, and I would have done everything I could to help, whether it was useless or not.
sjwahwah, people do risk their lives for others in the mountains of Scotland all the time. Many climbers volunteer to go out as Mountain Rescue squads, just as many professional and amateur sailors volunteer in RNLI lifeboats. It's called doing the right thing.
Sir Edmund Hillary has spoken out about this, and he's horrified. These people put their personal ambition to climb Everest ahead of the other guy's life. Just think about that. Letting someone die because they wanted to be able to boast about climbing the damn mountain. Time was when people put others ahead of their own petty needs. Despicable. It makes not a damn bit of difference to me whether the guy who died could have been saved. If I had been there and found someone in that state, my climb would have been over that very minute, and I would have done everything I could to help, whether it was useless or not.
sjwahwah, people do risk their lives for others in the mountains of Scotland all the time. Many climbers volunteer to go out as Mountain Rescue squads, just as many professional and amateur sailors volunteer in RNLI lifeboats. It's called doing the right thing.
Well said George!
Billy Boy
26-May-06, 10:42
people do risk their lives for others in the mountains of Scotland all the time. Many climbers volunteer to go out as Mountain Rescue squads, just as many professional and amateur sailors volunteer in RNLI lifeboats. It's called doing the right thing.
well said george, a lot of people today don't know what it mean's, doing the right thing,
This BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5016536.stm) is also worth reading.
Sir Edmund Hillary has spoken out about this, and he's horrified. These people put their personal ambition to climb Everest ahead of the other guy's life. Just think about that. Letting someone die because they wanted to be able to boast about climbing the damn mountain. Time was when people put others ahead of their own petty needs. Despicable. It makes not a damn bit of difference to me whether the guy who died could have been saved. If I had been there and found someone in that state, my climb would have been over that very minute, and I would have done everything I could to help, whether it was useless or not.
sjwahwah, people do risk their lives for others in the mountains of Scotland all the time. Many climbers volunteer to go out as Mountain Rescue squads, just as many professional and amateur sailors volunteer in RNLI lifeboats. It's called doing the right thing.
Well said George.:D
These climbing types all seem to have a similar mindset. The guy who was dying probably knew he was getting into trouble but was driven to carry on by the mentality that conquering the summit is everything. Who is to say he would not have walked past another dying climber if the situation were reversed?
I remember reading about a guy a few years ago. He was on the last drive to the summit of Everest and was warned that if he carried on then death was certain. He was offered the chance to be taken off the mountain but carried on and died, happy, at the summit.
Personally speaking I would leave the climbers to it, they know what they are taking on and if they get into trouble then hard luck.
"Ghost climbers in the sky"
rollerboy
26-May-06, 14:59
that makes me sick to think that any human could walk passed someone dying well i hope they get whats coming to them cos one day when something like that happens to them and they need help it will be in there minds that they walked passed a dying man and never helped wishing that they did.
I heard today that a bunch of climbers on a Mount Everest jolly just climbed passed a dying man on their way up Mount Everest and did not try to rescue him or comforted him. No attempt was made at all. Climbers are saying that it was not possible so they are trying to defend their decision.
Could you walk past a dying man no matter the difficult circumstances?
Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/23/wsharp23.xml)
Heck no.. thats awfull
Imagine that .. Gawd... Thats sick!
I heard today that a bunch of climbers on a Mount Everest jolly just climbed passed a dying man on their way up Mount Everest and did not try to rescue him or comforted him. No attempt was made at all. Climbers are saying that it was not possible so they are trying to defend their decision.
Could you walk past a dying man no matter the difficult circumstances?
Article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/23/wsharp23.xml)
The people involved obviously have no human compassion what so ever!!!!
Bingobabe
26-May-06, 15:34
MMMM i feel quite saddened about this article or disapointed! Whatever happened to human compassion what a sad world we live in.
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=243
A read of the above site might give some insight into the problems of a rescue from that height involving somebody who was conscious but had a fractured leg and was at least able to give his rescuers some assistance.
With respect to staying with the person, how long do you risk staying for before you yourself become just another fatality amongst the rest on Everest.
Take note of the climbers decision concerning what he should do about something he found near a precipice and consider what you would have done.
It's an interesting thought!
The people involved obviously have no human compassion what so ever!!!!
Far worse happens every day in this world. Much of it could be prevented if, collectively, we would show this "human compassion"
It is very easy to criticise from the comfort of your computer seat and play "What would Jesus Do?"
Who among us can say they could always do the compassionate thing, no matter how desperate the circumstances?
I am sure those who ate their fellow passengers in order to survive after a plane crash, did not think they would ever resort to such a taboo act in order to preserve themselves.
It is a tough one but I recently did an extreme sports trauma management course (based on the First bike on scene course that the police use)
And the first thing they teach you is DRABC not ABC.
Dangers Responsiveness and the Airway Breathing Circulation.
So it is said that you shouldn`t risk your life, that is one hell of a moral dilemma - as long as they can live with it!
I believe there were about 40 people who climbed past the dying man, I would take some convincing that they couldn't have pooled their efforts to get the man off the mountain. Crikey, I've watched 'touching the void' and the chap got off the mountain with a broken leg on his own so really there is no excuse imho.
Far worse happens every day in this world. Much of it could be prevented if, collectively, we would show this "human compassion"
It is very easy to criticise from the comfort of your computer seat and play "What would Jesus Do?"
Who among us can say they could always do the compassionate thing, no matter how desperate the circumstances?
I am sure those who ate their fellow passengers in order to survive after a plane crash, did not think they would ever resort to such a taboo act in order to preserve themselves.
I can assure you i would not have just carried on past just so i could climb a mountain.
I can assure you i would not have just carried on past just so i could climb a mountain.
And would your kids, parents, loved ones have been happy to see you die in the effort to save a lost cause?
From what I have read of this story, the people concerned discussed the matter and assessed that the person was beyond help.
People at the scene can make a concious decision based on the circumstances, they weigh up the morals versus the practicalities. Until you have actually been in a desperate enough situation you cannot say you would never do anything.
They could at least have given consideration to putting the poor guy out of his misery.
i dont think there was ever 40 people going past at one point.
the man went up without enough oxygen and no sherpa also.
of the story i read, one group did stop, they radioed their base camp who spoke to medics, they then informed the team he had been deprived of oxygen for too long and was a lost cause.
if something happend to the people trying to help (which is likley)thats more casultys to try to help. its hard, but sometimes nothing can be done
The difficulty with this is that unless you have been there you have no idea what it is like! Sir Edmund Hilary was disgusted - well he knows what its like up there, and in principal, I bet 99.99% of us would have tried to help, but when you are up near the summit in "The death zone," you barely have enough energy to drag yourself on. Even if you stopped when you reached this climber, there is nothing to say that you could have done anything for him. You certainly would not be able to carry him up or down, and a rescue operation from outside would take too long to organise. Not nice for the climber to die up there all alone, but they know the risks of that extreme mountain and many others like it. I am not saying that the 40 or so climbers who went past are all in the right, I am just saying that self preservation when you are on the edge of life is very strong. Look at the guys Mallory and Irvine, who scaled Everest before Hillary. Mallory was so obsessed with getting to the summit that he hadn't made a warm drink or meal before he left the last camp. There was other equipment he had left behind also, as if knowing that he might not return, but it mattered not as long as he got there! I believe he did make it, although there is no evidence. The 2 of them died there with no help.
Well all i can say is that i certainly wouldn't walk pass someone if there in need of help
Cause one day you never know when you might be in need of help and you wouldn't like it if they just ignored you.
And would your kids, parents, loved ones have been happy to see you die in the effort to save a lost cause?
From what I have read of this story, the people concerned discussed the matter and assessed that the person was beyond help.
People at the scene can make a concious decision based on the circumstances, they weigh up the morals versus the practicalities. Until you have actually been in a desperate enough situation you cannot say you would never do anything.So you would just walk pass ......even knowing that you could save a life .
So you would just walk pass ......even knowing that you could save a life .
In certain circumstances, yes. It is a hypothetical question only, as I would not be selfish enough to put myself in life-threatening danger in the first place, with kids and family at home not knowing if I would be coming back.
If my own safety were in great danger, or if it were in the slightest danger and it was clear the person was beyond help, I would have to walk away, despite the moral question. I put my family way before someone who voluntarily took on a mountain that claims many lives every year.
People who had reached this man had obviously expended similar energy and bodily resources, they didn't just step fresh off the set of Casualty. I am not going to point the finger at them for looking out for their own lives first.
connieb19
27-May-06, 11:06
In certain circumstances, yes. It is a hypothetical question only, as I would not be selfish enough to put myself in life-threatening danger in the first place, with kids and family at home not knowing if I would be coming back.
If my own safety were in great danger, or if it were in the slightest danger and it was clear the person was beyond help, I would have to walk away, despite the moral question. I put my family way before someone who voluntarily took on a mountain that claims many lives every year.
People who had reached this man had obviously expended similar energy and bodily resources, they didn't just step fresh off the set of Casualty. I am not going to point the finger at them for looking out for their own lives first.I have to agree with scorrie...
willowbankbear
27-May-06, 12:01
I have to agree with scorrie...
No, I would help even it means the end for me, I just couldnt sit & watch some1 die
No, I would help even it means the end for me, I just couldnt sit & watch some1 die
Agree with you stoneroses, i could not walk away to leave someone die all alone, even if it meant the end for me. I'm not that cold-hearted.
Agree with you stoneroses, i could not walk away to leave someone die all alone, even if it meant the end for me. I'm not that cold-hearted.
Yes i also agree with you there i get more of a buzz knowing that i saved a live than climbing a mountain
connieb19
27-May-06, 12:12
Agree with you stoneroses, i could not walk away to leave someone die all alone, even if it meant the end for me. I'm not that cold-hearted.Rubbish, so if you were a mother with kids and was sitting with a stranger who was going to die anyway, you would leave your kids with no mother and die with the stranger just so he wouldn't be alone. Wouldn't it be cold hearted to leave your kids with no mother?:confused I think all situations are different and there is no way you could say one way or another what you would do unless you were there.
I just know i could'nt walk away and leave someone to die, Even if i could'nt save them at least they would die knowing a complete stranger cared enough to stop and try to help them.
I think all situations are different and there is no way you could say one way or another what you would do unless you were there.
Exactly connie,;) We really can't say what we'd do.But ideally we'd like to help.
See you at the market.:lol:
Yes connie but he was putting his life at risk climbing the mountain in the first place . so why not risk your life to save another . i know for one that i feel better dying knowing that i saved a life .than dying to climb to the top of a hill for what to say look at me i made it yippee .... but i also left a man to die when i know i could of done something .... at least your family would of know you died helping someone else than dying just to prove a point.
willowbankbear
27-May-06, 12:26
Exactly connie,;) We really can't say what we'd do.But ideally we'd like to help.
See you at the market.:lol:
Shes goin to a funeral or Id have come down for some Paella & share my sweeties with ye 2lol
connieb19
27-May-06, 12:42
Yes connie but he was putting his life at risk climbing the mountain in the first place .My point exactly!!:confused
connieb19
27-May-06, 12:43
Shes goin to a funeral or Id have come down for some Paella & share my sweeties with ye 2lolMaybe we should all meet at woolies at 3 o'clock. ;)
willowbankbear
27-May-06, 13:02
Maybe we should all meet at woolies at 3 o'clock. ;)
sorry chikky Im going to a snore factory, coz ye 2 will drag me into spoons & ply me with drink:lol:
Im not working tomorrow though, Sunday is a fine day for a pint. lol
This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. I saw something on TV regarding mountain climbing that suggested this is accepted by climbers, ie that if you get into serious difficulty and helping you means more loss of life then you are on your own. We are not talking about the sort of rescues that go on everyday around the world where there is risk but with a high % chance of success but situations were they will be more loss of life. They climb knowing this and decide to do so anyway. I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I can see why they do it.
thats what i dont understand.. i understand that he if he could not be helped why could they not ease his passing..
i wonder if they asked what msg. he wanted to be passed on to loved ones?
what is really disturbing is that the mountains is littered with bodies.. that people just step over.
why does no one retrieve the bodies for proper burial?
that is what is really inhuman
at least they could drag the body back down with them.
thats what i dont understand.. i understand that he if he could not be helped why could they not ease his passing..
i wonder if they asked what msg. he wanted to be passed on to loved ones?
what is really disturbing is that the mountains is littered with bodies.. that people just step over.
why does no one retrieve the bodies for proper burial?
that is what is really inhuman
at least they could drag the body back down with them.
You should really read up on these things fully before passing comment. The guy was deprived of oxygen, it is highly unlikely he knew who he was or where he was, far less what he wanted said to his loved ones. High altitude affects the brain and the rest of the body. People who have reached the height on Everest where there are bodies, have already expended a lot of resources and it is hard enough to get back down again yourself without thinking about carrying a perished climber with you.
I have just read that a climber left for dead was rescued by 11 sherpas, I don't know if this is the same guy but the story is that he was offered help earlier but, because of the oxygen deprivation, he was hallucinating and strongly refused all offers of assistance. What would you do in that situation? Fight with the guy and force your help upon him?
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