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piratelassie
30-Mar-10, 00:08
Would it not be better to welcome the bi- roadsigns rather than oppose them. This would help to promote the gaelic language which can only be a good thing.

Boozeburglar
30-Mar-10, 00:12
I would be happier if the Gaelic was second on the signs. Intuitively one reads the top most first, and that is a distraction drivers don't need.

sam09
30-Mar-10, 00:20
I would rather see the cost of these signs being spent on repairing the roads. That would be more beneficial to all road users.

Elenna
30-Mar-10, 02:01
I would be happier if the Gaelic was second on the signs. Intuitively one reads the top most first, and that is a distraction drivers don't need.

Although I have no opposition to the dual-language signs...provided they are erected as older signs need replacing, as we have been told, and not taking funds away from other budgets...while driving in places where they already exist, I have found it very stressful to be searching for direction to where I want to go, and finding the names that "stand out" on the signs aren't recognisable to me (the Gaelic being above the English, in yellow, and slightly larger). Happily on these occasions I've had at least one passenger along to help with 'navigating', so managed ok.

But then when you also consider that tourists (a large source of income for the county, and country as a whole, too), for whom English already may be a second language, certainly aren't going to be familiar with the Gaelic names...they are going to be looking for the English name on the map, in their guide book, etc...it does seem to have the potential to be rather a worrying road-safety issue.

_Ju_
30-Mar-10, 07:09
Would it not be better to welcome the bi- roadsigns rather than oppose them. This would help to promote the gaelic language which can only be a good thing.

I am not sure of the numbers, but replacing the signs has a proposed budget 30% higher than the savings that have been imposed on Caithness General due to the economic climate. I would prefer the money to go to Caithness General, thus not further compromising the service we recieve, with the 30% "savings" going toward a new highschool. Gaelic road signs are not essencial, but an unwanted and historically incorrect luxury that the council want to impose.

cuddlepop
30-Mar-10, 11:06
The road signs should only be replaced with bi lingual gaelic and english ones only when they need to be repaced.

Its outrages that perfectly good road signs are thrown away because they're not "politically correct".:mad:

Gronnuck
30-Mar-10, 13:41
Would it not be better to welcome the bi- roadsigns rather than oppose them. This would help to promote the gaelic language which can only be a good thing.

Road signs are not the way to promote the Gaelic language because nobody but the Gaels will read them and they know where they are anyway. Some people may think they look "quaint" but most travellers will be relying on their sat navs and as yet none of the mapping services produce a Gaelic version nor are they likely to.
OK let's replace existing road signs with bi-lingual signs as and when the need arises but the Gaelic should not have precedence over the English for the reasons I've already outlined above.
It might be an idea to ask tourists and visitors themselves, through questionaires or focus groups, what they would like to see.

gleeber
30-Mar-10, 13:46
I wid just like to remind you that it's not tourists who define the Caithness identity. Neither is it the Gaelic Language. :roll:

Gronnuck
30-Mar-10, 14:04
I wid just like to remind you that it's not tourists who define the Caithness identity. Neither is it the Gaelic Language. :roll:

. . . . . and I though we were just talking about road signs :confused

ducati
30-Mar-10, 15:03
. . . . . and I though we were just talking about road signs :confused

The way I see it is that the HC and Visit Scotland or any of a dozen other quangos want to have a united, standardised approach to promoting SCOTTISH culture to the rest of the world. Caithness has a unique Caithnessiness (new word invented at the debate :cool: ) that doesn't fit into this neat plan so will probably be ignored if it doesn't toe the SCOTTISH line.

I personally don't see a problem allowing the signs to change over a period of time as long as we don't go the extreme (daft) Welsh way. It will give Caithnessians something (else) to buttonhole any unsuspecting tourist with. And that is what we want, an opportunity to promote CAITHNESS.:D

northener
30-Mar-10, 15:07
I've stated this before:

It's easy to sort out to everyones' satisfaction. The roadsigns that relate to a placename with Gaelic roots gets a Gaelic translation, the ones that relate to a placename with Norse roots gets a Norse translation.

Everything else is meddling and manouvering at the expense of one group or another.

ducati
30-Mar-10, 15:10
I've stated this before:

It's easy to sort out to everyones' satisfaction. The roadsigns that relate to a placename with Gaelic roots gets a Gaelic translation, the ones that relate to a placename with Norse roots gets a Norse translation.

Everything else is meddling and manouvering at the expense of one group or another.

This came up at the debate. It turns out it is not that simple to identify which is which :confused

weeboyagee
30-Mar-10, 15:18
...while driving in places where they already exist, I have found it very stressful to be searching for direction to where I want to go, and finding the names that "stand out" on the signs aren't recognisable to me (the Gaelic being above the English, in yellow, and slightly larger). Happily on these occasions I've had at least one passenger along to help with 'navigating', so managed ok
At the debate in the MacKay's Hotel, the person next to me, who was from Caithness said he wondered how we would get on in other countries where they have bilingual signage and people don't crash. And wondered how we get on abroad where we travel their roads on the wrong side, reading signs that aren't in English and don't crash. Including Brittany in France. Kinda says a lot about us doesn't it? How do the tourists manage Wales and Ireland? I don't have a take on the bilingual signs issue but I find this reason to be a very weak one.

WBG :cool:

Phill
30-Mar-10, 15:27
Caithnessiness (new word invented at the debate)


Try saying that after a few tumblers of Old Pulteney!

northener
30-Mar-10, 15:59
At the debate in the MacKay's Hotel, the person next to me, who was from Caithness said he wondered how we would get on in other countries where they have bilingual signage and people don't crash. And wondered how we get on abroad where we travel their roads on the wrong side, reading signs that aren't in English and don't crash. Including Brittany in France. Kinda says a lot about us doesn't it? How do the tourists manage Wales and Ireland? I don't have a take on the bilingual signs issue but I find this reason to be a very weak one.

WBG :cool:

I'll agree with you on that point, WBG. It's a very weak argument.

northener
30-Mar-10, 16:01
This came up at the debate. It turns out it is not that simple to identify which is which :confused

Nope, it's quite simple really.

It's just that some people would have us believe it's difficult as it will weaken their argument against Norse influence.

I believe 'Scarfskerry' reared it's bottle-green head above it's rock again...oh dear.

The Oracle
30-Mar-10, 16:04
Would it not be better to welcome the bi- roadsigns rather than oppose them. This would help to promote the gaelic language which can only be a good thing.

Why should promoting gaelic be a good thing?

Old Scots is probably the most widely used language of our past and why should that be allowed to slip into oblivion?

I have had the opportunity to briefly glance at an old book titled A Genealogical History of the Earldom of Sutherland. The book was compiled from original manuscripts from up to 1630 and the place names in there surely are more relevant to our past.

For example,

Catteynes
Southerland
Huntlie
Durines
Rosse
Drumhallesdell

Other place names such as Dornoch, Strathnaver, Lairg and Rogart remain unchanged.

annemarie482
30-Mar-10, 16:07
Would it not be better to welcome the bi- roadsigns rather than oppose them. This would help to promote the gaelic language which can only be a good thing.

personally.......i really do not see the point of them.
and the fact this guff has been argued so long is quite laughable! :lol:
if thats all we have to worry about then we're doing alright!
just my opinion though.

ducati
30-Mar-10, 16:42
Nope, it's quite simple really.

It's just that some people would have us believe it's difficult as it will weaken their argument against Norse influence.

I believe 'Scarfskerry' reared it's bottle-green head above it's rock again...oh dear.

You mean Flat rock covered in Shag poo?

northener
30-Mar-10, 17:00
You mean Flat rock covered in Shag poo?

Aye, that's the one.....

weeboyagee
30-Mar-10, 17:05
Why should promoting gaelic be a good thing? Old Scots is probably the most widely used language of our past and why should that be allowed to slip into oblivion?
Again, at the debate at the weekend Rob Gibson said that the new documentation being prepared for us (I can't remember if it was for the next census or not) will ask us if we speak "Scots". When the question was put to the audience of 100 how many put their hands up saying they spoke Scots - either Caithnessian or Gael??? Not one. Not one!

Now - that's how eye-opening the debate was. And they halted the debate at that point so that Lesley could ensure that what was being noted was true and that everyone had the ability to be certain of their response and what this was saying!

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
30-Mar-10, 17:11
It might be an idea to ask tourists and visitors themselves, through questionaires or focus groups, what they would like to see.
Already done that - many hundreds of tourists from all the ex-pat countries and the majority thought they were great. Anything relating to Scotland that makes them feel more "Scottish" from the Gaelic language, to the Norse heritage, tartan, and any other tack from the more discerning to the Niagra Falls novelty accepting anything-goes tourist - they love it. Road signs? They have the same arguments all over the place - just ask the Texans in the US! Of those in Southern California. Try some of the places in Canada - they can't agree the language to write their national anthem in - or sing it for crying out loud.

Do we think wur special lek? Think again.

WBG :cool:

weeboyagee
30-Mar-10, 17:14
I personally don't see a problem allowing the signs to change over a period of time as long as we don't go the extreme (daft) Welsh way.
:eek: oops,....duck,............incoming,............... .whizz..............

WBG :cool:

ducati
30-Mar-10, 19:44
:eek: oops,....duck,............incoming,............... .whizz..............

WBG :cool:

I only meant that as Welsh and Gaelic are old languages they sometimes don't have words for modern concepts. Have you seen the bilingual sign in Wales? It says "Industrial Estate" in English, followed by about four paragraphs trying to explain what it is in Welsh:lol:

But I agree, the Taffs will be along shortly (where is my Kevlar underwear?)

northener
30-Mar-10, 19:50
I only meant that as Welsh and Gaelic are old languages they sometimes don't have words for modern concepts. Have you seen the bilingual sign in Welsh. it says "Industrial Estate" in English, followed by about four paragraphs trying to explain what it is in Welsh:lol:

But I agree, the Taffs will be along shortly (where is my Kevlar underwear?)

Kev Milkins! Where are you! Your country needs you!:Razz

Elenna
30-Mar-10, 21:03
I would be happier if the Gaelic was second on the signs. Intuitively one reads the top most first, and that is a distraction drivers don't need.


Although I have no opposition to the dual-language signs...provided they are erected as older signs need replacing, as we have been told, and not taking funds away from other budgets...while driving in places where they already exist, I have found it very stressful to be searching for direction to where I want to go, and finding the names that "stand out" on the signs aren't recognisable to me (the Gaelic being above the English, in yellow, and slightly larger). Happily on these occasions I've had at least one passenger along to help with 'navigating', so managed ok.

But then when you also consider that tourists (a large source of income for the county, and country as a whole, too), for whom English already may be a second language, certainly aren't going to be familiar with the Gaelic names...they are going to be looking for the English name on the map, in their guide book, etc...it does seem to have the potential to be rather a worrying road-safety issue.


At the debate in the MacKay's Hotel, the person next to me, who was from Caithness said he wondered how we would get on in other countries where they have bilingual signage and people don't crash. And wondered how we get on abroad where we travel their roads on the wrong side, reading signs that aren't in English and don't crash. Including Brittany in France. Kinda says a lot about us doesn't it? How do the tourists manage Wales and Ireland? I don't have a take on the bilingual signs issue but I find this reason to be a very weak one.

WBG :cool:


I'll agree with you on that point, WBG. It's a very weak argument.


For the record, I wasnt actually arguing anything :roll:. I was agreeing with Boozburglar, and giving my personal experience for my opinion.

northener
30-Mar-10, 21:23
For the record, I wasnt actually arguing anything :roll:. I was agreeing with Boozburglar, and giving my personal experience for my opinion.

I didn't mean 'arguing' in a contradictory manner. I meant you were taking up a position of opposing the signs because of your own experiences - therefore you are using your own experiences to argue against the sig.....oh, forget it. I'm off to bed.

Elenna
30-Mar-10, 22:46
I didn't mean 'arguing' in a contradictory manner. I meant you were taking up a position of opposing the signs because of your own experiences - therefore you are using your own experiences to argue against the sig.....oh, forget it. I'm off to bed.

LOL! Well, I did begin by saying I had no opposition to the signs, so long as any new, bilingual ones, are routine replacements for old, or damaged ones...like we have been told they would be...and not all signs changed en mass.

Personally, I love the Gaelic language, and I have even been trying to learn it, on my own, for the last year or so. BUT...yes, my opinion (for what its worth) based on my experience, is that on road signs the English should be on top. It is the official language of this country, and the one that people here speak, and folk on the road are/will be looking for the placenames/road warnings and instructions in that language, so it should have precedence. Statistics may not show up higher numbers of road crashes in other bilingually-signed places, but the statistics dont go so far as to measure the stress levels of drivers/travellers!

And...ok, here is a point I havent seen/heard anyone put forward (though I wont say I've followed the whole thing in detail, and I wasnt able to be at the event on Sat) and hopefully it is not so 'weak'....so far as the Caithness debate is concerned, this idea would also actually serve to compromise with those putting forward the Loss-of-Norse/unique-heritage-in-place-names argument. The names with precedence on the signs would be just the same as we know them now :cool:, with the Gaelic 'translation' underneath. Where the place-names are already Gaelic, or Gaelic-derived, the two would be similar, or even match. Where the names are Norse, or otherwise derived, there would, of course, be a difference...which would then serve to do the quaint tourist-impressive 'thing', the educational 'thing', the Pan-Scotland uni-language/heritage 'thing', and probably several other 'things' in the debate which elude me at the moment because its late, I'm tired, and I'm not hugely accomplished at debating, anyway. :lol:

Of course, if the one side is hell-bent on Gaelicising all of Scotland, and/or the other is determined to have No Gaelic on signs in Caithness at any cost, then any debates, protests, or suggestions of compromise are likely to be useless. How flexible on this are folkies opinions, and the political agenda? Will Caithness bend...will Edinburgh listen?

So, there! Thats me said my thoughts on the matter.

The Pepsi Challenge
03-Jun-10, 14:16
Photo of a Caithness/ Gaelic road-sign courtesy of a certain wee biygee. However, it looks more like an advert than an actual road-sign.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2199/110073530.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/110073530.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Alan16
03-Jun-10, 15:33
One thing about that sign. The word Mod looks like it is already in Gaelic to me, so why does it have another translation?

sids
03-Jun-10, 22:24
I guess it's about what signs are actually for. Are they for helping people to get somewhere or for amusing tourists on bus trips?

Bilingual signs are half information and half dross. They have to be twice normal size. Almost nobody can read Gaelic. Absolutely nobody on God's Earth can read Gaelic and not read English.

crayola
04-Jun-10, 23:59
One thing about that sign. The word Mod looks like it is already in Gaelic to me, so why does it have another translation?I saw this post last night but I thought I'd wait and see if any of the garlic shallots would answer it. I know the answer but I wonder if any of them know. :confused

Alan16
05-Jun-10, 01:23
I saw this post last night but I thought I'd wait and see if any of the garlic shallots would answer it. I know the answer but I wonder if any of them know. :confused

You know the answer and haven't told me? How am I supposed to gain knowledge then, surely not by doing my own investigating!!!

crayola
05-Jun-10, 12:47
You know the answer and haven't told me? How am I supposed to gain knowledge then, surely not by doing my own investigating!!!Do you get it now? :)

scotsboy
05-Jun-10, 12:53
I have no problem with that sign or the Mod, it is mearly advertising the fact that the mod will be in Caithness.

Alan16
05-Jun-10, 15:15
Do you get it now? :)

Indeed I do. Thank you.

annthracks
05-Jun-10, 16:45
Gaelic road signs are not essencial, but an unwanted and historically incorrect luxury that the council want to impose.

Sums it up for me although I would substitute the words "the council" for "a power hungry bunch of right wing Scottish nationalists"

annthracks
05-Jun-10, 16:52
I only meant that as Welsh and Gaelic are old languages they sometimes don't have words for modern concepts. Have you seen the bilingual sign in Wales? It says "Industrial Estate" in English, followed by about four paragraphs trying to explain what it is in Welsh:lol:

But I agree, the Taffs will be along shortly (where is my Kevlar underwear?)

Listen to the Welsh talking and you'll hear that where they don't have an ancient word for something, they use the modern one - like "COMPEWTER" :) or "Industrial Estate"

nos dah

crayola
06-Jun-10, 12:28
Indeed I do. Thank you.
You are very welcome.

By their silence should I conclude that none of the garlic crowd know the answer?

Alba.gu.brath
13-Aug-10, 11:18
I Used to run a B&B in Skye and none of our guests ever complained about Gealic on the road signs and never heard of it causing any accidents considering that 70% of traffic on the roads on Skye in summer are Tourists
When it comes to the mod though i think it is outdated and controled by a select few

Cued Mile Failte

R Macfhionghuin

Walter Ego
13-Aug-10, 16:56
Photo of a Caithness/ Gaelic road-sign courtesy of a certain wee biygee. However, it looks more like an advert than an actual road-sign.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2199/110073530.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/110073530.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


A complete own foot-shoot. This sign is at the Ord as you accelerate uphill on a bend. You have about two seconds to read the sign and because of the mass of crammed in information it is impossible to read it all.

So the only bit that the tuorists will read is the garlic bit (if they're quick), none of the tourists will have a clue what the words mean (because they don't speak garlic) and drive on oblivious to the Mod.

What a pointless excersize. Absolutely pathetic. Only some brainless idiot in an office whos never been to where the sign is posted could have thought that one up.

Aaldtimer
13-Aug-10, 21:51
You betray your antipathy and your ignorance by the use of the term "garlic"![disgust]

Fly
13-Aug-10, 23:52
If something is'nt done about the state of the roads soon it won't matter what language the signs are in because there won't be anyone there to read them.

tootz
15-Aug-10, 10:38
I Think It Would Be Quite Surprising How Many People Actually Speak Gaelic :cool:

LMS
15-Aug-10, 23:48
I Think It Would Be Quite Surprising How Many People Actually Speak Gaelic :cool:

Are you hinting at not very many speakers, or as I suspect, hinting at quite a large number of Gaelic speakers? If it is the latter, are you:

A) trying to whip up a frenzy/antagonise the orgers?
B) new to the area?
C) living in Stornoway?

Walter Ego
16-Aug-10, 10:22
You betray your antipathy and your ignorance by the use of the term "garlic"![disgust]

Garlic, Frog, Jerry, Sassenach, White Settler, Paddy, Teuchter, Boragtooner....blah blah blah...

Nicknames, that is all.

If I refer to Americans as Yanks, does that make me anti-American?

I think not.

Touchy, aren't we?;)

John Little
16-Aug-10, 10:26
I am neutral on the signs as a principle, but they do seem to be over-wordy if a driver is supposed to read them if this one is anything to go by.
And they do cost - which comes off the council budget.

However, being English, I do take issue with the translation underneath which purports to be the english language. I am not aware that accents are used in English.

Nor have they ever been.

mrlennie
16-Aug-10, 10:28
Garlic, Frog, Jerry, Sassenach, White Settler, Paddy, Teuchter, Boragtooner....blah blah blah...



I must know what a Sassenach is before I start calling people it.

Alice in Blunderland
16-Aug-10, 11:08
What a pointless excersize. Absolutely pathetic. Only some brainless idiot in an office whos never been to where the sign is posted could have thought that one up.

I get your point however.....................

If you passed this point and a complete new sign had been erected so that it could be clearly displayed would it be a case of damned if they do damned if they dont. :confused

tootz
16-Aug-10, 12:48
Are you hinting at not very many speakers, or as I suspect, hinting at quite a large number of Gaelic speakers? If it is the latter, are you:

A) trying to whip up a frenzy/antagonise the orgers?
B) new to the area?
C) living in Stornoway?

Ive Lived Here All My Life, Not Trying To Antagonise Anyone.
Just Giving My Opinion, Thats Why Were On The Forum!! Sorry.