View Full Version : what a crazy world we live in
Billy Boy
21-May-06, 21:36
I couldnt believe that a young pregnant female prisoner was handcuffed during labour and the guard refused to remove them when asked by the doctor and nurse's, he only changed his mind when the doctor stated that the girl would neen an emergency section,but, once the baby was delivered safely he then handcuffed her again.
a mean what the heck did he think she was gonna do.
i know she did wrong by commiting a crime in the first place but surely a bit of human compassion could of been shown here.
And then there are those from carstairs who have commited horrendous crime's and yet they get days out to visit celtic park & shopping centre's what an ass the law is, is this the great british justice system going from one extreme to the other. [disgust]
Whitewater
21-May-06, 22:08
Couldn't agree with you more, probably one of these "jobs worth" persons. The police/prison guards always seem to try to make examples of the easy targets, you never see them near the the real hardmen/criminals.
landmarker
21-May-06, 22:12
I agree. In deference to the dignity of the new born infant the mother should have been unlocked from her restraints during labour and birth.
Bingobabe
21-May-06, 22:14
I couldnt believe that a young pregnant female prisoner was handcuffed during labour and the guard refused to remove them when asked by the doctor and nurse's, he only changed his mind when the doctor stated that the girl would neen an emergency section,but, once the baby was delivered safely he then handcuffed her again.
a mean what the heck did he think she was gonna do.
i know she did wrong by commiting a crime in the first place but surely a bit of human compassion could of been shown here.
And then there are those from carstairs who have commited horrendous crime's and yet they get days out to visit celtic park & shopping centre's what an ass the law is, is this the great british justice system going from one extreme to the other. [disgust]OH my god is this prison guard in the right frame of mind if some one had handcuffed me while i was in labour i would of commited a serious crime.lol
Bingobabe
21-May-06, 22:18
Also i must add when youre in labour you aint gonna get very far if you tried to do a runner.What is happening to the world its insane what i read in the papers these days.
Read this in disbelief in the paper today. It's hard to believe such a thing could of happened in the middle ages, let alone the 21st century.
No woman in Labour is going to be running anywhere they will be in considerable pain, and totally focused on the delivery.
I couldnt believe that a young pregnant female prisoner was handcuffed during labour and the guard refused to remove them when asked by the doctor and nurse's, he only changed his mind when the doctor stated that the girl would neen an emergency section,but, once the baby was delivered safely he then handcuffed her again.
a mean what the heck did he think she was gonna do.
i know she did wrong by commiting a crime in the first place but surely a bit of human compassion could of been shown here.
And then there are those from carstairs who have commited horrendous crime's and yet they get days out to visit celtic park & shopping centre's what an ass the law is, is this the great british justice system going from one extreme to the other. [disgust]
I am sure that if the doctors had any objection then she would have had the handcuffs taken off. I personally think it was appropriate that she was handcuffed throghout the procedure. Afteralll, as any woman says when they have a baby, it's not a holiday. Being handcuffed will be a poignant reminder to her when she brings her kid up and make her to think about her crimes. Also, if the guard thought there was no security concerns then I think he/she might have kept them off but he didn't. I think the consequence for him/her, the home secretary, the hospital and the police would have been much worse if she had of escaped aided by others on the outside and left with a baby. I can imagine the headlines now and the embarrassment for the Government.
It is easy for anybody who doesn't know the full facts to criticise this.
the doctors did object several times but the handcuffs were not removed until she had to get an emergency section.
It would be interesting to know whether the handcuffs contributed to the need for an emergency section.
sassylass
23-May-06, 05:02
It's quite possible that she was a danger to the doctors, nurses, guard, and possibly herself, even while she was in the throes of labour. Not all woman are gentle, delicate flowers, you know.
And Rheghead is right, we don't know all the facts.
concerned resident
23-May-06, 07:54
This is the sort of treatment you would expect from a third world country, run by a state police etc. Sorry forgot, we are.
landmarker
23-May-06, 17:43
I read a newspaper report which said 'if Blair is still leading the Labour Party next year, the the Scottish Nationalists may well win a majority at the Scottish Assembly. What's the local opinion on this?
Do you think this might have ramifications for incoming settlers/ homebuyers/second home owners*
I'd doubt it myself, as Scots seem to run England at the moment, by and large. That's fine with me, though I wish they'd make a better job of it.
Is Nationalism very big in the far north?
*I read also that a part of the Cairngorm National Park has imposed a three year residency rule on anyone buying a house in the area. What chance extension to other parts? Wouldn't the market collapse? I can see the sense in this but surely the key is to build more affordable homes for those in the community that have real world jobs and real world wages - like me!
There is plenty of flipping room, lots of water etc. etc.What's stoppin' em?
Voting for the SNP is like walking into a ramshackled ruin and looking around at the plush settee and the nice wall paper and being impressed enough to buy the place.
The Labour party on the other hand is a decent house but the furniture and fittings are getting a bit worn, so it should not put off the experienced house buyer.
landmarker
23-May-06, 18:01
This should have been a different / new thread - darn!
Couldn't agree with you more, probably one of these "jobs worth" persons. The police/prison guards always seem to try to make examples of the easy targets, you never see them near the the real hardmen/criminals.
Just heard that 500 cops have carried out anti terrorist raids in the Manchester area.....near or what?
Does anybody know why this woman was in prison in the first place?
I wouldn't think any court would be sending a pregnant woman to prison for something minor.
she was in prison for assualt.
Billy Boy
25-May-06, 20:05
i know she was in prison for assault but that still doesnt make it right that they should have had her handcuffed.
haveing been through labour and a c section i can assure you she wasnt going anywhere, you cant even stand with an epidural
And as for being worried about assault what pregnant woman in full labour wouldnt want to clobber the first person near them a sure as heck know that if mr billy boy had came any closer to me i would of punched his lights oot:(
its unbelievable that she should be handcuffed during labour but people who commit murder can get home for the weekend or out on nice day trips.
connieb19
25-May-06, 20:20
its unbelievable that she should be handcuffed during labour but people who commit murder can get home for the weekend or out on nice day trips.I don't understand why people think she shouldn't be handcuffed. If I was a midwife who had to be present throughout the labour of some-one jailed for assault, I would want her to be handcuffed too. Why should the nurses and midwives be put at risk from this woman?:confused Imagine had she assaulted a nurse, every-one would be shouting, why WASN'T she handcuffed.
Aaand, what if she assaulted the baby? Not all women(especially those done for assault) are the nurturing type.
connieb19
25-May-06, 20:25
Aaand, what if she assaulted the baby? Not all women(especially those done for assault) are the nurturing type.Exactly, I just do not understand these people who think she should not have been handcuffed.:confused
A second prisoner has told how she gave birth in handcuffs - then forced to breastfeed her newborn girl with a male guard shackled to her. She was also forced to go to the toilet and even shower still chained to the MALE guard.
This young girl was serving 3 months for shoplifting. This is unacceptable behaviour and needs to stop.
[quote connieb19]I just do not understand these people who think she should not have been handcuffed.:confused [quote].
This post was put on when the discussion arose about the young girl that was first handcuffed during labour, she was in prison for assault.
I'm interested in your views on the latest young girl to go through this. I'm very sure this girl was of no way a threat, i mean was she going to steal the gas and air bottle.:roll:
scrapydoo
28-May-06, 14:03
She did the crime she should pay the time, she was pregnant she should'nt have been out stealing in the first place she should have been thinking of her unborn child. [disgust]
I understood that the handcuffing of female prisoners during labour had been banned in 1996. And all those suggesting that the midwives surely would be glad the patient is restrained should read this - taken from the RCM guidance from1996
The Royal College of Midwives believes that it is the duty of all of those providing maternity services to ensure that the dignity of every pregnant woman is preserved, regardless of her situation, or the way in which care is delivered. Whilst the RCM makes no judgement on the position of women in prison in general, it is concerned that maternity care which is both safe and appropriate should be available to these women. The role of the midwife is to attend women during pregnancy and childbirth and it is the midwife's responsibility to ensure high standards of care throughout that time.
and
Handcuffs are removed at the point of admission to the delivery suite
and
Handcuffs or other restraints are removed during any medical or midwifery examination or during intimate times such as breastfeeding.
Its also interesting to note that in the last ten years the number of women in prison has tripled and that they are mainly in for theft and fraud with around 17% of prisoners in for violent offences. In addition there is some research that shows a staggering 70% of women prisoners have mental health problems. Almost fifty per cent of wome prisoners are serving sentences of less than 6 months. 20% of women in prison have grown up in care. Finally i found information from the home office which stated that 37% of all women prisoners had no previous convictions compared to 15% of male prisoners. The prison service also recognises that bullying d victimisation by both other prisoners and staff is a problem in women's prisons. something like 50% of prisoners report being victims of domestic violence.
Given all these statistics i think a picture emerges of damaged and vulnerable women in a lot of cases. One has to ask whether shackling women prisoners is necessary in the light of the information provided above. Whether its actually a form of bullying and de humanising women and babies where there is no actual legal or safety issue. Now before all you lot jump on me accusing me of being soft on crime and some sort of woolly headed woman- i amnt. Of course if women break the law they need to be punished. Strikes me that traumatising women during birth is an uneccessarily cruel and invasive thing to do and is likely to exacerbate problems for these women not help in any way. It may even make it more difficult for wome to bond with their baby - leading to breakdowns in their own families that might ultimately end up with that child in care and being failed by the system once again - history repeating itself. Seems to me as a society we fail the most vulnerable again and again and again
She did the crime she should pay the time, she was pregnant she should'nt have been out stealing in the first place she should have been thinking of her unborn child. [disgust]
She was paying for her crime.:roll: I agree, she should of been thinking about her unborn child, but we don't know her situation. How desperate was she? What did she steal?.
Being handcuffed to a MALE prison guard whilst showering, visiting the toilet and giving birth is degrading to any prisoner, she was not at risk to anyone.
She had also just recently had an operation on her leg, so i guess, she would'nt of got far even if she did find the strength during labour to make a break for it.
Of course if women break the law they need to be punished. Strikes me that traumatising women during birth is an uneccessarily cruel and invasive thing to do and is likely to exacerbate problems for these women not help in any way. It may even make it more difficult for wome to bond with their baby - leading to breakdowns in their own families that might ultimately end up with that child in care and being failed by the system once again - history repeating itself. Seems to me as a society we fail the most vulnerable again and again and again
Exactly Squidge.
I couldn't agree more Angela she was paying her time for the crime she committed I can't even begin to imagine how degrading it was for the young woman when she had to shower, go to the toilet and give birth to her child being handcuffed.
A second prisoner has told how she gave birth in handcuffs - then forced to breastfeed her newborn girl with a male guard shackled to her. She was also forced to go to the toilet and even shower still chained to the MALE guard.
This young girl was serving 3 months for shoplifting. This is unacceptable behaviour and needs to stop.
[quote connieb19]I just do not understand these people who think she should not have been handcuffed.:confused [quote].
This post was put on when the discussion arose about the young girl that was first handcuffed during labour, she was in prison for assault.
I'm interested in your views on the latest young girl to go through this. I'm very sure this girl was of no way a threat, i mean was she going to steal the gas and air bottle.:roll:Thought female guard had to be present when holding a female prisoner ?
Billy Boy
28-May-06, 18:25
well said squidge,a well written post,as they say you hit the nail on the head there lol:D
connieb19
28-May-06, 18:49
She was paying for her crime.:roll: I agree, she should of been thinking about her unborn child, but we don't know her situation. How desperate was she? What did she steal?.
How desperate doe's some-one have to be before they resort to stealing? If It was a member of my family she had stolen from, I would be happy to see her treated this way. Too many women think that having kids is a way to avoid jail. Jail should be a place no-one EVER wants to be instead of some holiday. If her treatment was so bad, let's hope she has learnt her lesson and thinks twice before staling again.
connieb19
28-May-06, 18:54
A second prisoner has told how she gave birth in handcuffs - then forced to breastfeed her newborn girl with a male guard shackled to her. She was also forced to go to the toilet and even shower still chained to the MALE guard.
This young girl was serving 3 months for shoplifting. This is unacceptable behaviour and needs to stop.
[quote connieb19]I just do not understand these people who think she should not have been handcuffed.[quote].
This post was put on when the discussion arose about the young girl that was first handcuffed during labour, she was in prison for assault.
I'm interested in your views on the latest young girl to go through this. I'm very sure this girl was of no way a threat, i mean was she going to steal the gas and air bottle.:roll:I'm quite sure she wouldn't be interested in stealing the gas in air. Why should the other patients have to put up with a thief wandering free about the wards? What about when they are in labour, do they have to take all their belongings into the labour room with them because there is a thief on the go? Wouldn't that be a stress on the honest people?:~(
[quote=connieb19]How desperate doe's some-one have to be before they resort to stealing?
Sometimes connie some people are very desperate.
[quote=connieb19]If It was a member of my family she had stolen from, I would be happy to see her treated this way.[quote=connieb19]
In respect yes, by all means a jail sentence. handcuffed during labour!! that's an ordeal on it's own.
[quote=connieb19]Too many women think that having kids is a way to avoid jail. Jail should be a place no-one EVER wants to be instead of some holiday.[quote=connieb19]
I don't think she went out and got pregnant in hope to avoid jail.
And i never read anywhere that she thought she was on holiday.
[quote=connieb19]If her treatment was so bad, let's hope she has learnt her lesson and thinks twice before staling again.[/quote=connieb19]
Yes, i don't think she would of enjoyed jail too much.
Connie, i agree a punishment should be put in place for theft. But really and truely in your heart do you honestly believe this young girl deserved the treatment she suffered during labour.?:confused
connieb19
28-May-06, 19:06
Yes I do think prison should be hard, and I hope she dosn't want to go back. I don't feel sorry for her at all, I feel sorry for who-ever she stole from.[disgust]
Why should the other patients have to put up with a thief wandering free about the wards? What about when they are in labour, do they have to take all their belongings into the labour room with them because there is a thief on the go? Wouldn't that be a stress on the honest people?:~(
A thief in handcuffs.:roll:
She was'nt wandering around freely in the wards, these young girls are transfered to the hospital in labour.
Yes I do think prison should be hard, and I hope she dosn't want to go back. I don't feel sorry for her at all, I feel sorry for who-ever she stole from.[disgust]
I hope she does'nt want to go back either. You did'nt answer my question connie, are you really happy to see young girls handcuffed during labour for commiting petty crimes.?
connieb19
28-May-06, 19:15
I hope she does'nt want to go back either. You did'nt answer my question connie, are you really happy to see young girls handcuffed during labour for commiting petty crimes.?Yes, i am happy to see thieves handcuffed. in my eyes, stealing is not a petty crime.:roll:
Yes, i am happy to see thieves handcuffed.
Is that During labour, showering and visting the toilet?
connieb19
28-May-06, 19:28
Is that During labour, showering and visting the toilet?I'd be happy to see them handcuffed for 24 hours a day. Maybe then it would be some sort of deterrant. In fact i'd be even happier if their hands were chopped off.
Tell you what connie - we ll let you be the first to chop their hands off to make sure they dont do it again:roll:
You never stole anything connie? ever? even accidentally? even as a kid? Even when you were told to by the big horrible bully that you were terrified of? Even a cookie out of a jar? You ever been in care connie? You ever lived on your own in a flat at 16 You ever owed money to someone who would rape you if you didnt pay it back? You ever needed a fix so badly that you couldnt think straight? You ever not known where your next meal is coming from? You ever had the only options available to you to steal and flog something or to turn a trick? you ever slept on the street or in a squat with no money and no food and not been able to go home cos you know your dad would hit you and your mum would be out of her head on some drug or other? How about the girl whose dad kept her in the shed since she was 13 cos his new girlfriend didnt like her? Think she got money for new clothes? Think that she pinched things cos she was selfish and wicked or cos she needed new shoes and wanted some things that were like the other girls had - make up and CDs and stuff. By the way - thats a true story too - thats a child that was in care in Highlands - her dad kept her in the SHED - she ate there, she slept there, she washed in a bucket of cold water and had a potty to use at night.
People steal for all sorts of reasons - because they are desperate, because they are unhappy, because they are skint, because they are ill, becasue they fall in with the bad crowd and get caught up in something they are not able to deal with, because they fall victim to drugs, because of all sorts of reasons including that they are wicked and self absorbed and selfish.
Locking them up in a lot of cases doesnt actually teach them not to steal again and not cos its a holiday camp but because it dehumanises and labels people so that when they get out they dont see an alternative other than crime again. If you are part of the hang them and flog them brigade then i feel sorry for you - where is compassion and humanity? people are poorer without it.
Has the woman in question ever been through the experiences that you speak of?
the point is rheghead that we dont know - research shows that 20 percent of women in prison have been in care, and 70% havemental health problems - thats the prison inspectorates figures. To label all theives as wicked and selfish and have no compassion ignores the facts that many of them arent. there but for the grace of god and all that jazz.
Amark of a society is the way that it deal with its vulnerable and criminal and at 18 pregnant and scared and alone - being handcuffed to a male prison warder whilst giving birth, showering and using hte toilet is inhumne and totally out of proportion
connieb19
28-May-06, 19:54
Squidge, I was brought up being told that if I ever stole my Dad would put my hands in the fire. I have never stolen so I do not need you to feel sorry for me because I am not tolerant of thieves. I notice you didn't mention people stealing for greed on your list. You may think it is ok to blame everything except the criminal but I don't. I have never stolen but I have had things stolen from me so I stand by everything I have said.
Squidge, I was brought up being told that if I ever stole my Dad would put my hands in the fire. I have never stolen so I do not need you to feel sorry for me because I am not tolerant of thieves. I notice you didn't mention people stealing for greed on your list. You may think it is ok to blame everything except the criminal but I don't. I have never stolen but I have had things stolen from me so I stand by everything I have said.
Not even from the pic 'n' mix, corner shop or a pint of milk from someones door, Flowers from the riverside, a friends school book.?
Are you really saying you have'nt pinched a thing, gosh your one in a million.:D
I didnt mention greed per se connie but i did say wicked and selfish - of COURSE people steal for greed but that isnt it all. Take the woman who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer and buys a big house and a fancy car and goes off on holidays all the time and compare it with the girl who lives in the shed? You think they are both the same? I wasnt saying that there is never a reason to blame the criminal just that there are other issues to take into account sometimes and ignoring those issues means that we never actually tackle the problems and prevent reoffending or deal with those who are vulnerable to offending in the first place.
connieb19
28-May-06, 20:04
Not even from the pic 'n' mix, corner shop or a pint of milk from someones door, Flowers from the riverside, a friends school book.?
Are you really saying you have'nt pinched a thing, gosh your one in a million.:DHow nice for the lovely little criminals that there are people like yourself and squide to sympathise with them. Gosh, lets all give them a big hug and tell them how they arent to blame, It's the society they've been brought up in. Where's your sympathy for the victims of the crimes?
connieb19
28-May-06, 20:06
I didnt mention greed per se connie but i did say wicked and selfish - of COURSE people steal for greed but that isnt it all. Take the woman who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer and buys a big house and a fancy car and goes off on holidays all the time and compare it with the girl who lives in the shed? You think they are both the same? I wasnt saying that there is never a reason to blame the criminal just that there are other issues to take into account sometimes and ignoring those issues means that we never actually tackle the problems and prevent reoffending or deal with those who are vulnerable to offending in the first place.So what would you do with the girl who steals two hundred and fifty thousand pounds from her employer. If she says she was brought up in a shed, would that be ok then?:confused
no connie its never all right - nowhere did i say they should get away with it. But there is a need for compassion and humanity in how we deal with people wherever we can and we should note that we are very lucky if we can be smug in our own righteousness and not give one iota about anyone else. As a society we should see our collective responsibility for that and often we dont.
How nice for the lovely little criminals that there are people like yourself and squide to sympathise with them. Gosh, lets all give them a big hug and tell them how they arent to blame, It's the society they've been brought up in. Where's your sympathy for the victims of the crimes?
I sympathise with these young girls that are put through an ordeal such as being handcuffed during labour. I'm not on there side with regards to their stealing.
I do have sympathy for victims of crime, i have not said that i don't.
My point is these girls should not be handcuffed during labour, visiting the toilet or showering this is degrading wether or not they stole a pint of milk from the corner shop, or a top from marks and spencers.
Let's all give them a big hug indeed connie, for their ordeal during labour, not for commiting a crime.
connieb19
28-May-06, 20:19
I'll keep my hugs and sympathies for the victims if thats ok, or have you forgotten about them?:roll: And, I hardly imagine she's been locked up for stealing a pint of milk from a doorstep.
I am sure that if the doctors had any objection then she would have had the handcuffs taken off. I personally think it was appropriate that she was handcuffed throghout the procedure. Afteralll, as any woman says when they have a baby, it's not a holiday. Being handcuffed will be a poignant reminder to her when she brings her kid up and make her to think about her crimes. Also, if the guard thought there was no security concerns then I think he/she might have kept them off but he didn't. I think the consequence for him/her, the home secretary, the hospital and the police would have been much worse if she had of escaped aided by others on the outside and left with a baby. I can imagine the headlines now and the embarrassment for the Government.
It is easy for anybody who doesn't know the full facts to criticise this.
I do not care what crime she commited, being handcuffed in labour is horrendous. Believe me for her to try and run would be damn near impossible. Its not the childs fault her mother made mistakes...[evil]
I'll keep my hugs and sympathies for the victims if thats ok, or have you forgotten about them?:roll:
Sympathy for the victim and compassion for the criminal are not mutually exclusive - you dont have to ignore one to have the other. You can have both. Do you think I have never been the victim of a crime? I grew up around Manchester i have been assaulted, mugged and burgled, had my car stolen several times, I have had money stolen, worked in a store that had terrible trouble with shoplifting, had my bag snatched and dealt with a vast array of people fiddling their benefits. I am still able to have some compassion and see the bigger picture in all this.
If we shackle teenage pregnant girls to male guards whilst they give birth, force them to be shackled whilst they shower and go to the toilet and remain unmoved by it what sort of people are we? How do we expect that young women will go on to be good mums and come out of prison able to live a better life when we treat them this way? How do we expect that they will learn to respect others and accept responsibility for thier own behaviour and teach their children to respect and trust authority when we think that this is an acceptable way to deal with them? If you think that it is then you should look at the statistics about re offending and reconsider.
sassylass
30-May-06, 03:57
It does seem barbaric to treat anyone this way. However, we don't know all the facts, do we?
Even if the girl was jailed for "only" theft, quite possibly there were extenuating circumstances which necessitated total control.
We cannot pass judgement on either side because we just don't know all the details.
Its not the childs fault her mother made mistakes...[evil]
How is the kid being punished?
what we have to remember guys is that nothing is black and white.. and that there are many shades of gray.
connie hun i understand that criminals have to be punished.. but at the same time if you stay so rigid you are going to break..
what about all the people in prison who are innocent.. and are victims of circumstance? do they deserve what they get?
there are loads of peeps who have served years and years of their lives for crimes they never commited.. and are just now being released because new evidence via dna is coming. out.
where is the justice for them?
also the punishment should fit the crime.. not every crime is the same.
there is always extinuating circumstances.
yes we have hardened criminals ..and the ones that just get out of jail to commit a crime again. and i agree they deserve everything they get.
however human compassion is a great thing and its what keeps us as a race together.
this story made me think of when slavery was the thing back home.
people were property not human beings with thoughts or feelings..
the same with endentured servants..
most endentured servants were scottish and sent to the penal colonies because of petty theft.. ie stealing bread .. or hunting on the kings land to feed their starving families..
and for these crimes they were tortured, raped and put in to virtual slavery.. do you think that is appropriate?
honestly.. i hope the girls sues the crud out of the system for what they did to her. seems the only way to stop it from happening is to hit their pocketbook.
becasue rheg..
it is very important to have bonding with mother and child directly after birth..
the point is rheghead that we dont know - research shows that 20 percent of women in prison have been in care, and 70% havemental health problems - thats the prison inspectorates figures. To label all theives as wicked and selfish and have no compassion ignores the facts that many of them arent. there but for the grace of god and all that jazz.
Amark of a society is the way that it deal with its vulnerable and criminal and at 18 pregnant and scared and alone - being handcuffed to a male prison warder whilst giving birth, showering and using hte toilet is inhumne and totally out of proportion
Statistics and lies I hear folk cry, the fact is, these cons can't behave themselves and they require higher walls and stronger bars on the windows. After half a century of namby pamby rehabilitation we still have a soaring crime rate and my gut feeling is that if we can degrade these people so much then they might just get the message that society wants to get real with them.
That woman was in custody and she has no privacy and if that extends to her giving birth then so be it. The kid isn't being harmed by it and neither is she. Crikey, hospital staff used to tie women down whilst giving birth at one time so what is the difference?
A mark of society is that if we go too namby pamby on felons then it will cave in on itself.
I bet your bottom dollar that the first time she had to obey a rule since leaving school was when she got taken to prison yet most of us have too obey rules all our lives.
It is just a handcuff at the end of the day!!
becasue rheg..
it is very important to have bonding with mother and child directly after birth..
Well the fact of the case might be that the kid was gonna be taken off her so what difference will it make?:confused
We don't know the full facts, so how can we judge one way or the other?
what makes you think the child is going to be taken off her?
you do not automatically loose your child because you are in jail.
also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.
what makes you think the child is going to be taken off her?
you do not automatically loose your child because you are in jail.
also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.
Nothing makes me think that the kid was gonna be taken off her but if it was then my point is, 'what would handcuffing the mother harm the mother/baby relationship if she wasn't gonna be the mother?'
Yes, I have never given birth but I have a fairly vivid imagination and still no matter how traumatic it is, it shouldn't have any bearing on the security and medical decisions that had to be made.
I actually think she could walk away from this in time and it will have shocked her into shape so she can take her place in society for her good and her baby's welfare. She will be a better person for it as well.
Statistics and lies I hear folk cry, the fact is, these cons can't behave themselves and they require higher walls and stronger bars on the windows. After half a century of namby pamby rehabilitation we still have a soaring crime rate and my gut feeling is that if we can degrade these people so much then they might just get the message that society wants to get real with them.
That woman was in custody and she has no privacy and if that extends to her giving birth then so be it. The kid isn't being harmed by it and neither is she. Crikey, hospital staff used to tie women down whilst giving birth at one time so what is the difference?
A mark of society is that if we go too namby pamby on felons then it will cave in on itself.
I bet your bottom dollar that the first time she had to obey a rule since leaving school was when she got taken to prison yet most of us have too obey rules all our lives.
It is just a handcuff at the end of the day!!
Rehabilitation????? Dont make me laugh - we make noises about rehabilitation and ensuring people dont reoffend but we dont actually DO anything about it? Degrade them? then they come out and have less self respect and less respect for anyone else - thats going to help then. Take the baby off them? what when a girl might have a six month or one year sentence. What you gonna do with the baby they remove from her? What about other children she might have? You say we dont know the facts you are right we dont but there is as much chance - perhaps more that she is in need of compassion as there is that she is wicked and evil. It sometimes appears that society is harder on women who break the law than on men. As if its somehow worse that a woman breaks the law than a man cos women are supposed to be softer gentler and more subservient.
There are people who have first hand experience of dealing with offenders post on this board maybe they would be able to reasure me they were all wicked greedy and cruel with no hope of rehabilitation.
also as you have never given birth.. you can have no idea of how horrendous and traumatic an experiance it is.
Oh yes we do, women keep telling us how much they have to suffer, over and over again [disgust]
Actually i find the whole giving birth thing ok - it wasnt horrendous or degrading or traumatic - it was a very positive and exciting and although it hurts and its hard work I actually enjoyed it all three times - which is perhaps fortunate really being as how im doing it again in a few months!!!!
Maybe thats why the handcuff thing is so appalling to me - many women find birth traumatic and terrible and struggle to bond with their babies and they arent in handcuffs. We are overlooking the fact too that this isnt a long term practice - it was introduced By Michael Howard when he was home secretary as part of the "get tough on criminals" policy the conservatives had. It was banned in 1996 so what on earth is it still happening for? The prison service say that it was never their own policy to handcuff women during childbirth so why is it still happening?
Also i must add when youre in labour you aint gonna get very far if you tried to do a runner.What is happening to the world its insane what i read in the papers these days.
He's a man - what do you expect? He does not comprehend that a woman in labour cannot enter even the egg & spoon race.
there is also the issue of distress.. the mother is put under a lot more distress and that is very relative to the health of the baby..
the more stress the mother is under the more stress the baby is under..
and a babys heartrate drops very quickly.. once it starts..
It's only crazy if you believe what you read in the papers....
Oh don't lock the poor wee souls up - they were obviously stealing/assaulting because they are socially disadvantaged. ......
And if you have to lock them up wrap them in cotton wool to stop them having a hard time.....
Oh stop please before I boak.....
The handcuffing of prisoners or persons arrested is done for the protection of the person/s dealing with the criminal/alleged criminal, as much for the one in restraints.
These people are in prison for a reason - if they have a history of assaulting staff or self harm (a high rate of which occurs amongst female inmates) then restraining them whilst outside the confines of the prison is for safety!
Hospital staff are assaulted on a regular basis, so if they're dealing with a person convicted of assault then controlling the person is important - Health and Safety At Work will probably come into play. They are also in an environment where very sharp instruments are possibly going to be within reach.
You don't know the full facts in these cases yet prefer to pass judgement on what you read in the tabloids.
there are restraints specifically made for patients whom are out of control.. that are not hand cuffs.. and was the girl out of control?
how out of control can you be when you are in labour?
i know that both times i did it.. i could barely move much less asault some one. it takes everything just to push.
It's only crazy if you believe what you read in the papers....
Oh don't lock the poor wee souls up - they were obviously stealing/assaulting because they are socially disadvantaged. ......
And if you have to lock them up wrap them in cotton wool to stop them having a hard time.....
Oh stop please before I boak......
Once again i ask anyone that has first hand dealings with offenders to tell me that they are all WITHOUT EXCEPTION wicked evil and greedy. There is evidence that disadvantage plays a big part in whether people offend or not. There is evidence that many women in prison are themselves victims. why is it so hard for people to accept that environment and background is the breeding ground for some anti social and criminal behaviour? Why is it hard to accept that if people are helped and supported and shown respect and humanity that they are less likely to re offend or even to offend in the first place?
The handcuffing of prisoners or persons arrested is done for the protection of the person/s dealing with the criminal/alleged criminal, as much for the one in restraints.. So in these cases why does the RCM say that handcudffing is not acceptable????
These people are in prison for a reason - if they have a history of assaulting staff or self harm (a high rate of which occurs amongst female inmates) then restraining them whilst outside the confines of the prison is for safety!. and what if they dont? Is it acceptable to do this just in case they might? and acceptable to make them shower and use the toilet whilst handcuffed to a male guard?
You don't know the full facts in these cases yet prefer to pass judgement on what you read in the tabloids. Neither do you know the full facts and yet you pass judgement. What makes our arguments less valid than yours or yours better informed than ours?
I was not basing my post on what someone else has said or read but merely putting forwards my thoughts.
The fact that a female was cuffed to a male warder sounds highly improbable. We do have female prison officers now.
Can you produce firm evidence that this has happened? And I don't mean a story in the Daily Record....
If I had my way they would be chained together in gangs and be put to work 18 hours a day working their way through their sentence instead of sitting in their nice cells with their home comforts doing sweet nothing for their crimes.
I don't understand why people think she shouldn't be handcuffed. If I was a midwife who had to be present throughout the labour of some-one jailed for assault, I would want her to be handcuffed too. Why should the nurses and midwives be put at risk from this woman?:confused Imagine had she assaulted a nurse, every-one would be shouting, why WASN'T she handcuffed.
I.m sorry to have to agree with you.
If I was the PO. I would not want to risk injury to anybody in the vacinity.
THis island of ours has gone completely crazy.
There is no discipline and no self respect - therefore no respect for others.
BUT BEWARE - it is only a sad minority spoiling it for us all.
Once again i ask anyone that has first hand dealings with offenders to tell me that they are all WITHOUT EXCEPTION wicked evil and greedy.
I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.
Now if you are as greedy and evil as they yourself then you may not see that they are.
I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.
Is that really true? Are you telling me that in all your dealings with offenders, You never came across a situation where someone got caught up in something that spiralled out of control, you never came across someone who made a stupid mistake? You never came across someone who acted out of desperation or fear? You never came across someone who felt they had nowhere else to go? You never ever spoke to a young person and thought that you might be able to help them avoid getting into trouble? You never sat and spoke to them and explained what would happen if they went along the road they were treading and saw it dawn on them that they were wrong? You never pitied anyone or felt they needed help or support to get out of the mess they were in? You never dealt with anyone who was mentally ill?
Never? Ever? That all the people you dealt with were
certainly all without exception greedy and evil
I dont believe you - i think that is either a lie or I think that you are saying that because to suggest that some of these people you dealt witht were not evil and greedy leaves room for society to have to take some responsibility for some of the crime some of the time and you arent prepared to take your share of that.
Now if you are as greedy and evil as they yourself then you may not see that they are. I am going to ignore that wee jibe Rheghead for what it is - inflammatory and beneath you and as i just suggested you might possibly be lying i think i should just smile and let it go.
Name one offender that hasn't committed an act of greed or evil. I think you will struggle to.
Name one offender that hasn't committed an act of greed or evil. I think you will struggle to.
That isnt what i asked though rheghead is it? I am not asking about the action but about the person who committed the action. Even though the action maybe wicked sometimes the person isnt wicked.
There was a case where a man performed the most stupid overtaking action on the A96 and killed some people in an oncoming car. This was a terrible thing to do - a stupid wicked and thoughtless act for which he was sentenced to four years in prison. He could not live with the results of his actions and hung himself in 2004. Wicked, greedy,evil? Was this not a complete tragedy for everyone involved in this - those injured and killed? the children left behind when the man committed suicide?
What about the girl who had a baby in secret and smothered it? the baby was found in a wardrobe a month later A wicked and evil act without a doubt but was she herself wicked and evil or sad deperate and ill?
What about the 15 year old who gets convicted for criminal damage? A loner, one parent an alcoholic, one parent absent. No one cares what he gets up to - what time he comes in, school know that home is terrible but find him difficult to deal with and he hates it anyway - its pointless he isnt going to get a job anyway, what social workers?, there are no adults in his life who have a positive influence on him and he is angry. No one has ever taught him how to control the anger he feels and then one night he nicks a bottle of vodka from home gets drunk and smashes up and sets fire to his school. A wicked thing to do but is this boy wicked, evil, beyond hope?
what about the 13 year old who gets in a fight with his mates outside the chippy - a wee scuffle - this isnt a samurai sword thing, there is pushing shoving and a few punches thrown - one boy throws a punch and knocks a lads tooth out. His parents rightly report it and the boy is charged with assault. Wicked or evil? What happens if his parents punish him, the police officer who charges the boy spends a good deal of time pointing out what will happen if he gets in toruble again and he gets a caution and it never happens again?
Once again - just to remind everyone - Im not saying that no offenders are wicked or evil but that they arent all that way and to say they are is wrong. There has to be room for compassion in the justice system and there has to be a place for teaching respect.
So four wicked and evil acts maybe but wicked and evil people? I think not somehow
That isnt what i asked though rheghead is it? I am not asking about the action but about the person who committed the action.
The two are inseparable, one judges a person on the acts they make.
So four wicked and evil acts maybe but wicked and evil people?
Myra Hindley killed four times
Again, all convicted felons are greedy or evil.
Myra hindley was indeed wicked and evil but would you saythe four examples i gave were wicked evil people?
Myra hindley was indeed wicked and evil but would you saythe four examples i gave were wicked evil people?
That is your judgement of Myra but it is not everyone's. She was convicted of only four acts of evil but she wasn't evil all the time as she shocked a lot of people at the time and they couldn't believe it. In fact a lot of folk didn't think she was evil, just very easily led, a tragic case of love blinds, a tale that can be told over and over again. Myra only sits at just another position on the sliding scale of 'evil', we all sit somewhere else.
My point to all this is that squidge brought in a reliious term called evil, what is evil? I think we all are, there is not a day goes by when we all have evil thoughts according to scripture. But how do we define evil? Nobody knows so why did squdge introduce the term? Dunno but it all depends on the individual so it was inappropriate to introduce it.
i simply asked a question rheghead. As i am ambivalent about religion the religious connotations escaped me and i dont understand why the word is inappropriate. I asked whether anyone could say that offenders were without exception wicked and evil and greedy and you replied
I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.
given that you think that all offenders are this way how can the word be inappropriate? I beleive Myra hindley was wicked and that she was in a position to know what she was doing. I dont actually beleive that the decision to deny her parole was made for the right reasons because it was a political decision. Had it been a judicial decision then maye we would have more idea about whether she remained wicked the whole of her life or not.
You still havent commented on the other examples i gave
Angel Eyes
31-May-06, 17:53
[quote=Rheghead]I can say with authority on this that they are most certainly all without exception greedy and evil.
Correct me if I am wrong were you not on jury duty recently? If you feel this strongly about criminals why did you not push for a guilty verdict as you stated at the time you knew they were guilty.
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