View Full Version : Gaelic Debate - MacKays Hotel, Sat 27th March 2010, 2pm
weeboyagee
08-Mar-10, 12:09
Morning - quick note over the morning cup of coffee!
There have been many debates re various matters involving Gaelic over the past months and years. The Local Organising Committee for the National Mod this year in Caithness have organised a debate, on Saturday 27th March at 2pm in the MacKay's Hotel. There will be a panel of 5 persons who will represent the various sectors of public interest. The debate will be hosted by Lesley Riddoch and we are cordially (note that word folks!) inviting everyone who would like to contribute or even just come and listen/watch - to attend. I'll let you know who the confirmed panel will be in due course but this should be an interesting debate!
For those of you who would actively like to take part in the debate, can you let me know - I would like to make arrangements for your contribution to be put to the panel and to pass to Lesley Riddoch.
You can also get in contact with our Event Support Officer, Carol-Anne MacKay at carolannemackay@hotmail.com with your contributions or by PM to myself.
I am hoping that Gleeber will get involved given his contributions both here and on footstompin.com
Will keep you posted but please add to this thread with comments, suggestions for the panel and audience to debate. This is the first time that I am aware that the debate will be put firmly in the public arena and I'm glad that it's the LOC for Mod Ghallaibh 2010 that's bringing it to that. It should be openly and frankly debated at a local level - to date everyone and their aunty outside of Caithness has been discussing "our county" - now let's have the debate IN "our county" with everyone "round the table" so to speak. What's your thoughts?
WBG :cool:
cuddlepop
08-Mar-10, 16:59
I hope you get a good turnout for the event,I'm sure it'll be informative and "entertaining",if opinions on here are anything to go by.:eek:
Interesting to note that the Mod will next be hosted in Paisley.Havent heard the same amount of fuss it going there compared to Caithness,all very strange.:confused
judging by the some of the arguments on here about the Gaelic language, I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun even if completely pointless. Debates are places for people to state their opinions, then not listen to other peoples.
weeboyagee
08-Mar-10, 18:33
judging by the some of the arguments on here about the Gaelic language, I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun even if completely pointless. Debates are places for people to state their opinions, then not listen to other peoples.
Completely pointless? I take it you have no opinion - or are one of the folks that state their opinions and then not listen to other peoples? Have seen your contribution to the Gaelic debate on here and you summed yourself up in a nutshell in your own statement.
Are you looking to take part? Everyone is welcome - no matter what their "opinion". Thanks to the responses so far who have said they would like to attend or take part by PM. Would very much like to see one or two points in this thread that can be put forward - or intimations that others would like to attend or take part. There's been plenty contribution on here previously - now's your chance to make your "opinion" count.
WBG :cool:
Cuddlepop What are you on about. Paisley is not covered in pointless gaelic signage!!
cuddlepop
08-Mar-10, 18:57
Cuddlepop What are you on about. Paisley is not covered in pointless gaelic signage!!
Watch this space.....:lol:
I am hoping that Gleeber will get involved given his contributions both here and on footstompin.comWBG :cool:
Thanks a bliddy billion. Put up or shut up comes to mind. :lol:
With a bit of luck Gaelic may be declared extinct before 27 March but if it's not I will come along and offer my support to the Gaelic languager but declare my hostility to the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 .
Tha e duilich gun teid sibh air ardart air an ciad latha nan soar laithean sgoil, mar sin chan urrainn dhomh pairt a gabhail - bith mi nam shuibhail a Eirinn.
Its a pity it will take place on the first day of the school holidays - otherwise I would be there.
I'll have to make do with the reports - :(
...... would actively like to take part in the debate, can you let me know - I =Riddoch.
WBG
Unfortunately I won't be here that weekend. Good luck with it WBG :)
Thanks a bliddy billion. Put up or shut up comes to mind.
With a bit of luck Gaelic may be declared extinct before 27 March but if it's not I will come along and offer my support to the Gaelic languager but declare my hostility to the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 .
I look forward to reading the transcript. :)
Completely pointless? I take it you have no opinion - or are one of the folks that state their opinions and then not listen to other peoples?
As you said yourself, you have seen my contributions to the Gaelic debate on here, so you know that I do in fact have an opinion. I say its completely pointless because the people who go in thinking its a dead language and a waste of money will come out thinking its a dead language and a waste of money, and the people who go in thinking the opposite will come out thinking the same thing they went in thinking.
Have seen your contribution to the Gaelic debate on here and you summed yourself up in a nutshell in your own statement.
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I never said I was an exception.
Are you looking to take part? Everyone is welcome - no matter what their "opinion".
I would actually enjoy taking part, there's nothing I like more than getting in a good argument debate. However, I am sadly a good few hundred miles away.
Thanks to the responses so far who have said they would like to attend or take part by PM. Would very much like to see one or two points in this thread that can be put forward...
Ok, here's a question: Why do we continue to spend large quantities of money on Gaelic road signs and the like, when there has been a near constant decrease in the number of people in Scotland who can speak Gaelic, and now that there are no only-Gaelic speaking people left? (Data lifted from the last census)
Wish I could be there an wish I could speak Gaelic.
weeboyagee
09-Mar-10, 18:38
Ok, here's a question: Why do we continue to spend large quantities of money on Gaelic road signs and the like, when there has been a near constant decrease in the number of people in Scotland who can speak Gaelic, and now that there are no only-Gaelic speaking people left? (Data lifted from the last census)
Question noted for the panel. Pity you're not going to be here - you're contribution would have been welcome.
WBG :cool:
changilass
09-Mar-10, 18:40
Would love to learn to speak Gaelic.
With regards the street signs, as has already been stated, the money comes from a different budget to other things, so even if we don't get the road signs, we still won't get our potholes filled.
With the state of some of the existing roadsignes, then its good they are getting replaced.
What harm are they doing? we still get the names in English and tourists love that sort of thing.
weeboyagee
09-Mar-10, 18:42
Tha e duilich gun teid sibh air ardart air an ciad latha nan soar laithean sgoil, mar sin chan urrainn dhomh pairt a gabhail - bith mi nam shuibhail a Eirinn.
Its a pity it will take place on the first day of the school holidays - otherwise I would be there.
I'll have to make do with the reports - :(
'Eil ceist sam bith agad co-dhiu airson na daoine air a phanel, anns a Ghaidhlig ma tha thu ag iarraidh? Bith mi thall ann an Eirinn cuideachd, ach an ath mhios! Chan urrain dhomh a feitheamh!
Have you got a question for the folks on the panel, in Gaelic if you want (but it will be translated for the audience and debated in English!)? I will be over in Ireland also but next month - can't wait!
WBG :cool:
I don't speak the language but will defend to the last the right of others to do so.
Just because it's a minority laguage does n't mean that it should be allowed to die and from what I understand there are now more people that have a working knowledge of it than there has been for some time.I also understand that there are several small enclaves in various parts of The New World where the language is used which means that it is far from dead.
Taking it to the extreme does that mean that The Finns should give up speaking their language as it is unique to their country?
Latin is often said to be a dead language and although there are few that can speak it, all of us use derivitives of that laguage every day and several million people speak the direct descendents of it.
Brorababe
09-Mar-10, 20:06
I was fortunate enough to have been brought up in a Gaelic-speaking home (wish I could speak it fluently), and although the language is seldom heard in East Sutherland these days it pleases me that efforts have been made in recent years to give it a higher profile nationally than has been the case hitherto. Every good wish for a positive debate.
Brorababe
As I have stated before, I have no objection to anyone who wishes, being taught gaelic. However, with the number of kids leaving school who can barely read, write and certainly cannot spell in English, perhaps it would be better to concentrate on that. It would be more beneficial towards getting jobs etc.
(I expect I will be shot down in flames)
I don't speak the language but will defend to the last the right of others to do so.
Just because it's a minority laguage does n't mean that it should be allowed to die and from what I understand there are now more people that have a working knowledge of it than there has been for some time.I also understand that there are several small enclaves in various parts of The New World where the language is used which means that it is far from dead.
Taking it to the extreme does that mean that The Finns should give up speaking their language as it is unique to their country?
Latin is often said to be a dead language and although there are few that can speak it, all of us use derivitives of that laguage every day and several million people speak the direct descendents of it.
Caithness was part of the Kingdom of Norway well into medieval times... dont underestimate the impact of this.
This is an issue of Culture, History and Heritage not one of Language.
Many people in Caithness feel that our history and accosiation with the northlands is being put to one side to suit a romantic view of a Gaelic Celt Scotland.
Things like Gaelic signs which tourists see really strikes a chord because it creates the wrong impression for a very unique county in Scotland.
I don't speak the language but will defend to the last the right of others to do so.
I don't think anyone is trying to take away peoples right to speak it. However, almost nobody speaks it in Scotland, and in Caithness & Sutherland in particular, considering on what website this argument is taking place.
Just because it's a minority laguage does n't mean that it should be allowed to die and from what I understand there are now more people that have a working knowledge of it than there has been for some time.
As I said in a previous post, according to the last census, there is nobody in Scotland who uses Gaelic only, and the number of people who are able to speak it has been on a steady decline, and is now barely one percent of the Scottish population.
I also understand that there are several small enclaves in various parts of The New World where the language is used which means that it is far from dead.
This is a debate about Gaelic in Scotland, and maybe even more specifically, about in the Highlands, not the new world.
Taking it to the extreme does that mean that The Finns should give up speaking their language as it is unique to their country?
That isn't taking it to an extreme, that is taking it to an extreme, then firing it of it in a bloody rocket.
Latin is often said to be a dead language and although there are few that can speak it, all of us use derivitives of that laguage every day and several million people speak the direct descendents of it.
Latin is the basis upon which many of the romance languages were founded. Gaelic has had nowhere near the same influence.
I was merely making a general comment and was not referring to Caithness in particular.
I am well aware of the history of the area and can understand that Caithnessians are likely to look towards Scandinavia which is reflected in the place names from the centre and right round the coast from Thurso to Wick and beyond but to the west there are names that can only come from the gael and whilst appreciating that there most probably never was a true gaelic community in the area there has obviously been some influence over the centuries.
I was merely making a general comment and was not referring to Caithness in particular.
I am well aware of the history of the area and can understand that Caithnessians are likely to look towards Scandinavia which is reflected in the place names from the centre and right round the coast from Thurso to Wick and beyond but to the west there are names that can only come from the gael and whilst appreciating that there most probably never was a true gaelic community in the area there has obviously been some influence over the centuries.
Gaelic is very much part of Scottish culture and history but I think it's wrong to try and promote it as a national identity which I think many people fear that the Scottish Government and local Government are trying to do.
I would think the majority of people in Caithness would prefer to just have new road signs in English. It's not anything against the language but like Orkney and Shetland we have a natural feeling of being slightly different from the rest of Scotland.
This probably annoys people, maybe incomers who have a more romantic view of the north of Scotland but at the end of the day we were sending men to fight in Norwegian wars in the 17th century, that link however more fragile than Orkney and Shetland is still hard to break.
Thank you Flashman, it had never occured to me that people could think there was an attempt to foist gaelic on the county as part of a wider plan to romanticise the area.
Perhaps there should be a campaign to get the road signs in Caithness spelt as they are pronounced.
(Takes tongue out of cheek!)
Gaelic is very much part of Scottish culture and history but I think it's wrong to try and promote it as a national identity which I think many people fear that the Scottish Government and local Government are trying to do.
I would think the majority of people in Caithness would prefer to just have new road signs in English. It's not anything against the language but like Orkney and Shetland we have a natural feeling of being slightly different from the rest of Scotland.
This probably annoys people, maybe incomers who have a more romantic view of the north of Scotland but at the end of the day we were sending men to fight in Norwegian wars in the 17th century, that link however more fragile than Orkney and Shetland is still hard to break.
I think you are being a bit unfair to incomers, we don't just show up on a whim you know :roll:
Thank you Flashman, it had never occured to me that people could think there was an attempt to foist gaelic on the county as part of a wider plan to romanticise the area.
Perhaps there should be a campaign to get the road signs in Caithness spelt as they are pronounced.
(Takes tongue out of cheek!)
Well being from Caithness I dont want tourists ect just thinking we are an extension of Surtherlandshire just flater.
Id rather a tourist to see that there are no signs in Gaelic, question this and maybe ask alocal and learning something.
Maybe the parts of Caithness that do have names rooted and Gaelic can be properly signposted in that way.
Either way I have nothing against the Language, im delighted that people want to learn it and delighted the MOD is coming here it just should not be pushed on a county the feels slightly different heritage wise.
northener
11-Mar-10, 14:08
Trouble is, as soon as the 'G' word is mentioned any thread reverts back to a signs issue....
Very briefly, there's a simple way to keep everyone happy.
If a place in Caithness is marked on the map with a Gaelic derived name (there's plenty on the western side) - it gets a Gaelic translation on the sign. If the Map gives a name with Norse roots (East side of the county) then it gets a Norse translation on the sign.
Keeps the cultural identity of Caithness intact and gives the tourists something to think and ask questions about...always a good thing.
No haggling, no-one foisting themselves on anyone and a fair solution all round. Job done. Simple.
I bet it doesn't happen.:roll:
I'll miss the debate as I'll be in Pitlochry, pity. I'd like to have said a few things regarding the whole issue of language in the Highlands.
WBG, I hope youi get a good turnout and something positive is taken away for everyone involved.
BTW: If anyone wants to put forward my Idea, please feel free. I'd be intersted to see what the reaction is from everyone there.
Id rather a tourist to see that there are no signs in Gaelic, question this and maybe ask alocal and learning something.
Take it from me, you will never learning anything asking a local :eek:
Even Chance
12-Mar-10, 10:58
If a place in Caithness is marked on the map with a Gaelic derived name (there's plenty on the western side) - it gets a Gaelic translation on the sign. If the Map gives a name with Norse roots (East side of the county) then it gets a Norse translation on the sign.
Keeps the cultural identity of Caithness intact and gives the tourists something to think and ask questions about...always a good thing.
Great Idea there Northener! I like it a LOT!!
Take it from me, you will never learning anything asking a local :eek:
English as a second language perchance, old chap
weeboyagee
12-Mar-10, 11:13
WBG, I hope you get a good turnout and something positive is taken away for everyone involved.
BTW: If anyone wants to put forward my Idea, please feel free. I'd be intersted to see what the reaction is from everyone there.
Your point is duly noted. Both this discussion, previous discussions and the others in another discussion that some of the folkees on here jumped to are being monitored for points of view to be put to the panel members.
Will let you know the responses! But there was a suggestion put forward on another forum to stream the debate live on the BBC - I believe that this is being considered?
WBG :cool:
Se mo bheachdsa - no ceist son a phannal co-dhui...
Sann ann an Gallamh a ruigeadh 's thogadh mi. Tha gaidhlig agam.
Sann a iomadach buaidh eadar dhealaichte a tàinig mo dhearbh aithne; Gaidhlig, Scots, an Ghàidhealtachd agus an Lochlannach. Tha mi proiseal air a mheasgaich na cultar aig a bheil Gallamh, bu toigh leam ga faicinn air moladh son a beartas agus domhainn.
Cuideachd, tha mi tuigsinn gum bith fhein-eolas eadar dhealaichte aig na feadhainn eile agus mar sin gum bith pàirt na dearbh aithne agam gallda dhaibh.
Gu ḿ-fhortanach, S' gann gu bheil a deasbaid a'toirt cothrom gu bith an chuisean nas domhainne a rannsachaidh. Tha an deasbaid a cuir air adhart mar dubh agus geal a mhàin air sgaths gu bheil nas fhasa.
Tha coigreachan a faireachdainn gu bheil e ceart gu lẹr son a cuir a-mach bheachdan làidir mum dearbh aithne agus ciamar am bu choir mise mo chloinne a thogail, agus gu bheil mi clach-mhuilinn air ćsean na dùthcha. mar sin chan eil mi faireachdainn misneachail mun pàirt cudthromaich nam bheatha agus tha mi mar coigreach nam dùthaich.
Am bu choir dhuinn beachdan làidir leigeil ma sgaoil agus an deasbaid a'cheannsaich ?
Aig ceann na rathaid, am bith beachdan làidir mar seo an choimhearsnachd briseadh as a chèile, ann an àite na drochaid a thogail, nuair am bu choir dhuinn a bith ar dualchas beart a comharrachadh ?
Tha gaidhlig aig mo chloinne agus se mo dḥchas gun bith iad a toirt leotha an aon ardan nan dualchas na tha mise nuair a tha iad nas sine. chan eil an deasbaid seo a toirt misneachd dhomh.
I was born and raised in caithness. I speak gaelic. I am not just a gaelic speaker. My identity has been forged from many influences; gaelic, scots, highland and Viking.
I am proud of the unique cultural mix that is caithness and would like to see it celebrated in all its richness and depth. I also recognise that the experience of others will be diferent and aspects of my identity will be unfamilliar to some in the community.
Unfortunately, the discussion of Gaelic in the context of caithness rarely explores these more complex subtle aspects and relationships. The arguments are presented in black an white with little room for accommodation, because it is easier.
Strangers find it acceptable to criticise or dismiss my identity and values, to comment on how I should be bringing up my children and accuse me of being a burden on the taxpayer, to the extent that sometime I feel a stranger in my homeland and I feel I have to conceal a part of my identity that is important to me.
Should these polarised opinions be allowed to continue to dominate ?
In difficult times, will the polarisation of opinions ultimately lead to a more isolated and intollerant communities on both sides of the debate, at a time when we could be reaching out to each other and celebrating our rich an diverse heritage, to find strength in our community ?
My kids speak gaelic and I hope when they are older that they will have as much pride in their heritage as I have, I am afraid the current debate doesn't inspire confidence.
I think the whole point that this debate exsists is that we do all care about our heritage and our shared heritage.
I dont have a problem with the language, it should be encouraged and we would really lose something special if it died out. I do care how Scotland portrays itself to the wider world though and the SNP's obsession with Gaelic seems to me to be purely political to try and hide our anglo past which they are clearly embarressed of.
peter macdonald
12-Mar-10, 17:51
Gamle Norsk vegur skilti vildi vera a fínn hugmynd i Kaithness !!!!!.
( Norn road signs would be a great idea in Caithness )
Pity I dont have a keyboard to illustrate what the names would be
but as as near as I can get Leabosthider = Lybster ,Reisa = Reiss ,Eyssteindalr = Ousdale etc etc
They would look neat around the place and be very useful to a lost Viking!!!
Norse influence .....A long long tradition
The Norse influence in Caithness began to wane under the rule of Earl Harald Maddadarson and his successors from about 1200 as Harald tried to balance his activities between the Scottish and Norwegian thrones ,both of which he owed his allegance . Its safe to say that alliances deals, betrayals and breaches of trust occurred regularly and the part Scottish lineage of Maddadarson gave Scottish kings of the Canmore dynasty an increasing excuse to meddle in the affairs of both Caithness and Orkney. William the Lion invaded North Scotland twice because of Maddadarson s perceived double dealing ,the second and final time ending with Harald being given a 25% punishment tax to be paid to the Scottish Crown.
For a short time caithness was even part of the Kingdom of Man under Rognvald Gudrodsson
The incident which finally broke the Norse linage forever was he loss of the "Goding ship" in 1232 when the Earls kinsmen were drowned on a return voyage to Orkney from a meeting with King Sverre Florvag. After this incident the Norse Earldom of Caithness became for all intents and purposes ..Scottish
A footnote to this bit is that the scenario for he last battle in the Orkneyinga saga is most probably the battle of Wick in 1201 Williams second invasion was a result of Harald winning this conflict
After this piece of history I would like to know what language was spoken by the Scottish Kings of the time .... Gaelic ...Scots ...Norn ??????
PM
peter macdonald
12-Mar-10, 18:10
"I dont have a problem with the language, it should be encouraged and we would really lose something special if it died out. I do care how Scotland portrays itself to the wider world though and the SNP's obsession with Gaelic seems to me to be purely political to try and hide our anglo past which they are clearly embarressed of."
Possibly but Im not sure about that as Burns didnt write in Gaelic. None of the major figures in the "Enlightenment" spoke Gaelic (as far as I know) and the SNP seem proud of them .
The image of Scotland abroad is hard to judge and in my own opinion it has faded in recent years not because of what the politicians of all parties in Edinburgh have done but more because smaller cultures are being swamped by the influence of Anglo-American media
(Please note not the English media but the Anglo American one )
PM
English as a second language perchance, old chap
.......[lol][lol]
The bairn joined the library last year, she is only 3 years old so can't yet read. She received 5 free books on joining, 2 in English and 3 in Gaelic.
We can read the 2 English ones but the other 3 are a waste of space. Not to be beaten I asked arround to find someone who could speak Gaelic and eventually found 3 people and enquired if they could translate books for me. Afraid not said 2 can speak Gaelic but no read or write it!!!
Roads signs like the books in Gaelic won't be much good to them either!!
Seems like money being wasted in various ways to 'educate us'
Unfortunately, the discussion of Gaelic in the context of caithness rarely explores these more complex subtle aspects and relationships. The arguments are presented in black an white with little room for accommodation, because it is easier.
Strangers find it acceptable to criticise or dismiss my identity and values, to comment on how I should be bringing up my children and accuse me of being a burden on the taxpayer, to the extent that sometime I feel a stranger in my homeland and I feel I have to conceal a part of my identity that is important to me.
The first paragraph is very true. Your talking about things much deeper than any debate will ever debate though. Your talking about feelings and feelings are very personal. We all have them.
I can understand how you must feel when you read about opposition to Gaelic especially when you connect it to your identity. Thats personal and we all have that too.
It's a pity that you feel a need to hide your Gaelicness but it shows how deeply affected you are by the Caithness opposition to the Gaelic Act 2005.
Nothing I could say can change how you feel but I feel strongly too that Caithness has as much right as anywhere to protect its naturally evolved language and culture and special dialect without interference from a Modern Gaelic movement to introduce customs and language artificially and via an act of parliament.
I know Lesley Riddoch from student politics days. She's a bit older than me and we went to different universities down there but she hasn't changed much over the years. She's ok and she's a good choice to chair this WBG brainwashing event.
weeboyagee
14-Mar-10, 00:22
I know Lesley Riddoch from student politics days. She's a bit older than me and we went to different universities down there but she hasn't changed much over the years. She's ok and she's a good choice to chair this WBG brainwashing event.
Erm, not my idea, this brainwashing event as you call it. Maybe you should talk to your student politics compatriot, she'll set you straight about who came up with the brainwashing idea, but then since you thought it was "my" event you could maybe explain why you thought that and why you think the event will be brainwashing?
WBG :cool:
The Gaelic lobby will act reasonably and passionately and play on the emotions of those they claim will deny them their birthright and at the same time will defend the draconian laws passed in their name by Holyrood as being essential to their survival.
I've seen Lesley in action on many occasions, she's an expert in that psychological warfare game. She could do it at 21 or whatever age she was then and she can still do it. You're lucky she's on your side.
Have you invited John Rosie and Deirdre Mackay?
weeboyagee
14-Mar-10, 09:11
The Gaelic lobby will act reasonably and passionately and play on the emotions of those they claim will deny them their birthright and at the same time will defend the draconian laws passed in their name by Holyrood as being essential to their survival.
I've seen Lesley in action on many occasions, she's an expert in that psychological warfare game. She could do it at 21 or whatever age she was then and she can still do it. You're lucky she's on your side.
Have you invited John Rosie and Deirdre Mackay?
An open invitation has been sent to everyone and open invitations on public forums. Deirdre is welcome but haven't sent an invitation specifically. You seem to have a perdetermined assumption of how the debate will go, and you quote Lesley Riddoch as being on "our" side. I can assure you having chatted a fair bit with Lesley, that she is definitely not on our side and I wouldn't want your comments to put anyone off, but I am sure that not everyone is of a same mind and only those who are prepared to write letters in papers and post on public forums or "debate" only in the confines of like minded people and yet NOT be prepared to meet the same public face to face.
Your comments strike me of the same sarcasm thrown at someones back but not made available to be answered when it matters.
Pity. Methinks you would find the Gaelic Lobby most interestingly different from preconceived consideration:
WBG :cool:
An open invitation has been sent to everyone and open invitations on public forums. Deirdre is welcome but haven't sent an invitation specifically. You seem to have a perdetermined assumption of how the debate will go, and you quote Lesley Riddoch as being on "our" side. I can assure you having chatted a fair bit with Lesley, that she is definitely not on our side and I wouldn't want your comments to put anyone off, but I am sure that not everyone is of a same mind and only those who are prepared to write letters in papers and post on public forums or "debate" only in the confines of like minded people and yet NOT be prepared to meet the same public face to face.
Your comments strike me of the same sarcasm thrown at someones back but not made available to be answered when it matters.
Pity. Methinks you would find the Gaelic Lobby most interestingly different from preconceived consideration:
WBG :cool:
Lesley is sympathetic enough and sufficiently 'on your side' to 'host' the meeting in Wick. I've heard her speak on these issues.
I dare you to send personal invitations to Mr Rosie and Ms Mackay.
You couldn't be more wrong about my alleged preconceptions if you tried. I write about my significant experiences from mixing with the Gaelic community and in particular the Gaelic lobby in Glasgow and other parts of the central belt and I know what they are like. I know people who mix with the people at the top of Gaelic lobby. They have driven me to my position. Read my previous posts if you can't remember or can't be bothered to ask.
I dare you to send personal invitations to Mr Rosie and Ms Mackay.
You couldn't be more wrong about my alleged preconceptions if you tried. I write about my significant experiences from mixing with the Gaelic community and in particular the Gaelic lobby in Glasgow and other parts of the central belt and I know what they are like.
I suspect councillor Rosie will have an invite only because wbg didnt deny it in his response to yourself. It would be a sham if he didnt get an invite and alternatively it would be a sham if councillor Rosie didnt accept the challenge. Its getting close to put up or shut up on this particular isue and the Rosies are in a position to push this issue more than the rest of us in Caithness who are against the Gaelic Act 2005.
I would be interested to know your personal experience of the big wigs in the Gaelic lobby. Do they use the traditional argument that the language of Scotland was Gaelic? Do they see opposition as discrimination? How many of them are native Gaelic speakers. Just a few questions and there are loads more.
I would say the coming debate is more about entertainment and media interest than anything practical coming from it but at least it will bring it to the fore. From my experience of caithness people they would rather Gaelic was put on the back burner. It's almost a non issue because they think its stupid to put Gaelic signs up in an area with no recent Gaelic activity. It's a modern form of social and cultural artificial insemination.
On the other hand it's that lethargy that's given the gaelic lobby its strength. Its about much more than road signs. The Gaelic lobby have their feet in the door big time through an act of parliament and the only way that those of us who have a deeper and more innate emotion about the county of caithness will be happy, is to see the act repealed.
I suspect councillor Rosie will have an invite only because wbg didnt deny it in his response to yourself. It would be a sham if he didnt get an invite and alternatively it would be a sham if councillor Rosie didnt accept the challenge. Its getting close to put up or shut up on this particular isue and the Rosies are in a position to push this issue more than the rest of us in Caithness who are against the Gaelic Act 2005.
You're a sharper follower of WBG's words than me. Well spotted.
I would be interested to know your personal experience of the big wigs in the Gaelic lobby.
I have friends with the ears of the major bigwigs. I'm one step away.
Do they use the traditional argument that the language of Scotland was Gaelic?Yes.
Do they see opposition as discrimination?Yes. They would blend in perfectly with the offended brigade on the Org.
How many of them are native Gaelic speakers.This is the big question. I don't know the relative numbers but it's my impression that most of the real Gaels just get on with being Gaels. The head of the Gaelic Thought Police is an exception but you already know about him. The pseudo Gaels from and in the central belt make the bulk of the noise but many of the vociferous outraged are converts to pseudo Gaeldom from a nation south of here. They also permeate various other ineffectual but mostly harmless organisations and causes.
Just a few questions and there are loads more.
I would say the coming debate is more about entertainment and media interest than anything practical coming from it but at least it will bring it to the fore. From my experience of caithness people they would rather Gaelic was put on the back burner. It's almost a non issue because they think its stupid to put Gaelic signs up in an area with no recent Gaelic activity. It's a modern form of social and cultural artificial insemination.
On the other hand it's that lethargy that's given the gaelic lobby its strength. Its about much more than road signs. The Gaelic lobby have their feet in the door big time through an act of parliament and the only way that those of us who have a deeper and more innate emotion about the county of caithness will be happy, is to see the act repealed.Absolutely.
A possible solution to the immediate Modular impasse in Caithness is blindingly obvious but I bet Lesley Riddoch won't put it forward because she has her own pies to fly and WBG won't because it doesn't suit his current position. It's too late for him anyways and I actually understand and sympathise with his dilemma.
The Pepsi Challenge
15-Mar-10, 02:24
Gaelic lobby big wigs? I'm sure they do exist... along with Bigfoot, little green men, and Boxing Day central heating engineers.
northener
15-Mar-10, 08:09
Gaelic lobby big wigs? I'm sure they do exist... along with Bigfoot, little green men, and Boxing Day central heating engineers.
So are you suggesting that the main movers behind the 2005 Gaelic Act are just a few random Gaelic speakers off the street?
weeboyagee
17-Mar-10, 18:27
Lesley is sympathetic enough and sufficiently 'on your side' to 'host' the meeting in Wick. I've heard her speak on these issues.
Lesley isn't going into this with a preconveived agenda. But she is going in suitably informed.
I dare you to send personal invitations to Mr Rosie and Ms Mackay.
Cllr Rosie and all Caithness Ward Councillors have been invited to attend. Cllr MacKay in Sutherland is not a councillor representing Caithness nor has links with Gaelic Organisations but is welcome to attend in response to the various invitations in the public arena.
Read my previous posts if you can't remember or can't be bothered to ask.
Have read them previously. The preconception is of your settled assumption that this debate is going to be a brainwashing exercise on my part. And to quote your own words - you couldn't be more wrong. I reiterate - an open debate. If it turns into a brainwashing exercise, then it doesn't say much for the strength of the will of the audience and/or participants.
WBG :cool:
Lesley isn't going into this with a preconveived agenda. But she is going in suitably informed.
The people who go in to these things are interested enough to have opinions on the matter. Of course they have a preconceived agenda.
weeboyagee
18-Mar-10, 09:16
The people who go in to these things are interested enough to have opinions on the matter.
Not always. Some do attend these debates with an open mind.
Of course they have a preconceived agenda.
Are you saying that there's no point in the debate - it's "rigged"? When you have different parties with different points of view and a gathering of people from the public that have varying viewpoints, how can it possibly be the case that the agenda can be preconceived leading to the obvious preconceived outcome that it would lead to.
Why not attend and "have a go" in the debate, rather than your token "try" at being engaged in such on the like of this public forum. The opinions of the youth matter a lot in today's society - you'll be here tomorrow when the rest of us are gone - no matter how thoroughly annoying I find your contributions, I and others still have to find respect for them.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
19-Mar-10, 21:12
Just to let folks know that we have a fine number of folks who have said they would like to take an active part in the debate. We also have a number of folk's names forward for the panel and we hope to announce the final panel at the beginning of next week. We have folks from all sections of the community - from your everyday Caithness Chiel, to your CEO's of national organisations.
But we definitely need you - the Caithness folks! As many of you as possible, it's YOUR county! Do you care about Gaelic in Caithness (in as much as any other issue in Caithness)? Is it relevant in today's county? Is it beneficial, a burden, distraction, essential?
Remember, this debate is open to the general Caithness public, including those who have, of varying opinions, made them known on here!
Any other questions or opinions?
WBG :cool:
The people who go in to these things are interested enough to have opinions on the matter. Of course they have a preconceived agenda.
I know what Lesley's agenda is. And the wee biy disna?
Do you not find that a bit odd? :confused
Boozeburglar
20-Mar-10, 00:48
I am all for a debate in Gaelic.
Is there a band playing?
I am all for a debate in Gaelic.
Good idea. No speaking in English allowed.
What are you saying? That wouldn't work because no-one in Wick speaks Gaelic? Do not fear, that can be solved. They have mod cons for everything nowadays. :)
I am all for a debate in Gaelic.
Is there a band playing?
:lol: That'll be a ceilidh then, whooooo-hooooo! ;)
I noticed UHI are tendering for a short course and week long course provider for Gaelic. So maybe able to learn the language localy soon (affordably) :cool:
peter macdonald
20-Mar-10, 12:25
A couple of points ...Firstly I can assure you that WBG is trying to get as many people of ALL viewpoints to attend the debate. He has contacted people who may not hold his views and asked if it was possible to attend
Secondly When the Gaelic act was passed in 2005 by the then Labour admin in Holyrood despite a fair bit of searching I cant find the Rosies making any comment either way...(hands up if I missed something ...but)
Thirdly One thing that annoys me is the "We are of a different culture brigade "We are Norse" so we dont want Gaelic signs."
Well if Caithness is a Norse area it is safe to say they have not done a hands turn to keep it that way. The Norse language died in the 1400s in Caithness , in fact Caithness dialect when heard by ORG members on radio and TV was recently described as "being like an inbred yokel"
Norse ,Gamle Norsk or Norn what ever you want to call it still exists in a fashon Icelandic ,the dialects of North Norway and pure Faroese but I dont hear of Thurso college being knocked over in the rush to provide language courses.
I can think of only one Wick person who learned a little Norwegian which used northern dialects (that was because the people he learned from were from that area) and that was the late harbour master Neil Stewart
The culture.... well when Thurso wanted a twin town it turned to Brilon not to any of Norse brethern. Really keen on keeping the links alive then :-((
Wick twinned with Klakksvik but I dont think there is any contact at all at the moment.
Ian Sinclair at Noss has investigated the Sinclairs involvement in middle age Norwegian politics but that is from a later time frame and well beyond the time of Norse rule in Caithness
Gaelic in mainland Scotland maybe dying but Norn has been dead 600 years
PM
I still haven't seen anyone from the Gaelic camp propose the obvious workaround to 'solve' the immediate Caithness Gaelic impasse. Only WBG and his ilk can do it. But he won't and I understand why he won't. Instead he's organised a public meeting to let everyone hear his impassioned pleas and convince them he's being reasonable. Lesley is a good ally for him because I know what she thinks and she will sound reasonable too. I predict that the cause of the current impasse and real opinions will be skirted around by the pair of them yet again.
northener
20-Mar-10, 15:38
I predict a rise in the sale of hacksaw blades very soon.....:Razz
And black spray paint? :)
And black spray paint? :)
I was armed with mine last time home;)
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
Chinese and Sanish maybe useful..............think you are missing the point re Gaelic (not that I would consider learning it myself, but see the place for it............which is not in Caithness!)
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
I think if you are english spoken its not much of a advantage learning another language just to be used in one country were as if you are a foreigner its worth there trouble learning english fluently because its an internationl language that benifits them for the rest of there life anywere in the world.
If your going teach kids another language it would make more sense to teach them sign language so it would benifit them and people with disabilitys and imagine if they teached kids sign language all over the world it would make things a whole lot easier and would make a good second international language
Chinese just becuase of the sheer numbers and it is the next (or possibly current) superpower, Spanish is spoken in many countries including Central/South America. I struggle by with a wee bit of Arabic, but it is spoken across the Middle East and North Africa.
Sign language is a great idea as well, my niece has just learned to sign and is working with deaf children,
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
Gaelic teacher perhaps? Only job I can think of where it would be a requirement.
I think if you are english spoken its not much of a advantage learning another language just to be used in one country were as if you are a foreigner its worth there trouble learning english fluently because its an internationl language that benifits them for the rest of there life anywere in the world.
If your going teach kids another language it would make more sense to teach them sign language so it would benifit them and people with disabilitys and imagine if they teached kids sign language all over the world it would make things a whole lot easier and would make a good second international language
Sign language, now there's a good idea. There's a lot more deaf people in this country than gaelic speaking. I had always intended to try and learn sign language, but othere things, mainly laziness, got in the way.
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
They can apply for temporary employment at Ṃd Ghallaibh. After that there could be permanent jobs removing black spray paint from roadsigns pointing to Inbhir Ùige and other places with madeup names. :lol:
Boozeburglar
20-Mar-10, 23:22
Gaelic must be the most pointless language we can teach our children. Where can Gaelic get them work? The Outer Hebrides? Whereas French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. can get them work the world over.
Yeah, pointless like Latin is.
;)
Yeah, pointless like Latin is.
;)Yes indeed. Imagine how confused the Roman tourist will be when she asks 'Quo Vadis?' and the answer she gets is 'Inbhir Ùige'.
Yes indeed. Imagine how confused the Roman tourist will be when she asks 'Quo Vadis?' and the answer she gets is 'Inbhir Ùige'.
[lol][lol][lol]
Are you saying that there's no point in the debate - it's "rigged"?
Not rigged, pointless. As I said, if people can find time in their day to go to a debate like this, then they probably have an opinion on the matter and no amount of closed-minded point making will have an affect.
When you have different parties with different points of view and a gathering of people from the public that have varying viewpoints...
I'd disagree there. More likely it is just people with the same view points at different extremes of the scale.
how can it possibly be the case that the agenda can be preconceived leading to the obvious preconceived outcome that it would lead to.
I'm not suggesting there is a preconceived outcome unless you consider the fact that there will be no agreed outcome preconceived.
Why not attend and "have a go" in the debate, rather than your token "try" at being engaged in such on the like of this public forum.
I've already explained why I cannot attend. And to suggest that the internet debates are what, unimportant compared to the live debate, seems slightly absurb to me, in this day and age and all.
The opinions of the youth matter a lot in today's society - you'll be here tomorrow when the rest of us are gone - no matter how thoroughly annoying I find your contributions, I and others still have to find respect for them.
God, when will people quit it with the youth rubbish. And you do not need to respect my opinions. At the least you just need to respect that I have opinions, but the opinions themselves you can think of what you will.
weeboyagee
23-Mar-10, 18:27
God, when will people quit it with the youth rubbish
When you grow up.
And you do not need to respect my opinions
OK, I don't, I was just being nice.
At the least you just need to respect that I have opinions
OK, I respect you have opinions, not that I could miss them on here - you have quite a lot of them.
...but the opinions themselves you can think of what you will.
Courtesy prevents me. Ach, I changed the bit that I had in here. Instead, I'll just say it as it is. Your whole "debating tone" smacks of impudence and immaturity. There. That's my opinion. You can respect that it is my opinion, and you can think of it what you will. ;)
WBG :cool:
When you grow up.
I'm just curious, at what point in saying the exact opposite of what I'd said three or four times in a row, did you think you sounded like the mature debater?
OK, I don't, I was just being nice.
No you weren't, you were trying to sound clever and mature, and instead came out sounding like an absolute moron. At which point did you think "no matter how thoroughly annoying I find your contributions" sounded 'nice'? Subtlety is something you have yet to master it seems.
OK, I respect you have opinions, not that I could miss them on here - you have quite a lot of them.
Of course I do, everyone does. That's why when you go into a shop you don't spend half an hour selecting which milk you want, you have an opinion on which you prefer and you go with that. What people do, the decisions they make, it is because of the opinions they have.
Courtesy prevents me.
It never has before.
Ach, I changed the bit that I had in here. Instead, I'll just say it as it is. Your whole "debating tone" smacks of impudence and immaturity.
Wow, did you have to look those words up? Oops, I'm being immature again, silly me. Perhaps I should just shut up and listen to my elders, who we all know are my betters... Give me a break, you think you're so damn mature? You spent a couple of minutes badly dividing my previous post up then continued to insult me in every comment. If the insults weren't so rubbish I might find it hurtful. But then again, probably not.
There. That's my opinion.
Trust me, if I thought you could hear me I'd yell with delight...
You can respect that it is my opinion, and you can think of it what you will. ;)
I respect the fact that you have opinions on the matter. As for what I think of them. Well they're just comedy gold.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 03:05
So are you suggesting that the main movers behind the 2005 Gaelic Act are just a few random Gaelic speakers off the street?
In a word, no.
Isn't it great how the MOD has led to an awakening of Nordic pride and culture in Caithness. I won't manage up myself on Saturday but would like to pose the question where do our Scandophiles go from here?
May I suggest an Uphellya in Wick or even better why not pull a replica longship up river to Watten then across country to the Halkirk area and down the Thurso to the Thor's harbour. I'm sure that a few Week berserkers or community service volunteers could be recruited on a Saturday night to wear helmets with cow horns and man the craft but by the time they reached Old St. Peters the inclination to rape and pillage might have diminished! I would be happy to provide artistic and technical consultancy advice from my knowledge of the Icelandic sagas.
I'm not so sure its an awakening of Nordic pride that has stirred the Caithness folk or an inability to identify with the Gaelic language and culture. Thats what it was for me. Theres nothing Gaelic about modern Caithness apart from some romantic notion from people who learnt the language and now have an act of parliament to ram it down everyone elses throats.
As for where we go from here. Well ideally I wouldnt start from here because an act of parliament is not the easiest thing to declare null and void.
It's nonsense to impose billingual road signs on caithness considering its history but more importantly it's recent history. The last 60 years not only dragged caithness to the forefront of world technology but more importantly there wasnt a proper Gael in sight.
Most of the ones who are now shouting loudest were busy learning their first language and then got cuaght up in some romantic notion that Kilts and horned hats may have someting to do with a modern caithness because it was part of an ancient caithness. Well that's nonsense too. Caithness is unique in it's culture and Gaelic has little or nothing to do with it. Neither has Norse apart from it's obvious links through place names.
We are what we are by natural evolutionary processess, both culturally and socially and any attempt to inject Gaelic into the modern Caithness psyche would be both artificial and false.
The only burning I would support would be the Gaelic Language Act (Scotland) 2005. Mind you I would have no problem if the aforementioned act was stuffed up the kilt of some symbolic Caithness Gael of which WBG would be the most prominent exhibit and set ablaze in Gillock Park.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 13:47
I'm not so sure its an awakening of Nordic pride that has stirred the Caithness folk or an inability to identify with the Gaelic language and culture. Thats what it was for me. Theres nothing Gaelic about modern Caithness apart from some romantic notion from people who learnt the language and now have an act of parliament to ram it down everyone elses throats.
As for where we go from here. Well ideally I wouldnt start from here because an act of parliament is not the easiest thing to declare null and void.
It's nonsense to impose billingual road signs on caithness considering its history but more importantly it's recent history. The last 60 years not only dragged caithness to the forefront of world technology but more importantly there wasnt a proper Gael in sight.
Most of the ones who are now shouting loudest were busy learning their first language and then got cuaght up in some romantic notion that Kilts and horned hats may have someting to do with a modern caithness because it was part of an ancient caithness. Well that's nonsense too. Caithness is unique in it's culture and Gaelic has little or nothing to do with it. Neither has Norse apart from it's obvious links through place names.
We are what we are by natural evolutionary processess, both culturally and socially and any attempt to inject Gaelic into the modern Caithness psyche would be both artificial and false.
The only burning I would support would be the Gaelic Language Act (Scotland) 2005. Mind you I would have no problem if the aforementioned act was stuffed up the kilt of some symbolic Caithness Gael of which WBG would be the most prominent exhibit and set ablaze in Gillock Park.
What is the Caithness psyche exactly?
What is the Caithness psyche exactly?
I would assume it is the forces which infleunce behavious, thought and personality - the things that affect Caithness people on a day to day basis that make them what they are.
What is the Caithness psyche exactly?
It means breath or life or soul or mind or spirit or a collection of all those or maybe even none.
You explained it much bettter than I could Scotsboy.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 14:57
I would assume it is the forces which infleunce behavious, thought and personality - the things that affect Caithness people on a day to day basis that make them what they are.
While I appreciate the pedantic definition, I am interested in what gleeber thinks is the 'Caithness' psyche. gleeber?
While I appreciate the pedantic definition, I am interested in what gleeber thinks is the 'Caithness' psyche. gleeber?
I'm happy to stand by whats been said by Scotsboy.
If you need more you will have to give more.
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 15:23
I'm happy to stand by whats been said by Scotsboy.
If you need more you will have to give more.
We know what "psyche" is by means of definition. But the "Caithness psyche"? I'm not sure I know what it means exactly.
How about a life without infleunce of the gaelic language - sorry if you find the definition pedantic, but I find the question churlish.
Ill try and be more specific pepsi.
The psyche is psychological in it's nature. It deals with human nature at it's deepest level. The psyche is visible in it's nature through human activities especially art and music where deeper more meaningful experiences can be made visible and the identification people make with such works is evidence of a deeper more meaningful communication between people.
It's obvious that the Gaelic debate has raised a few hackles on both sides of the argument so that makes me presume that there are deeper more meaningful forces at work for both sides.
From my experience of the Gaelic side they have a deep investment in their position which is not an everyday experience whilst the Caithness side of the argument has been portrayed by the press reports of Councillor Rosies hatred of Gaelic. Councillor Rosie is seen as the bogeyamn in the Gaelic world and because I largely agree with his stance I needed to understand why.
Did I dislike Gaelic? Was I just another one of those caithness men who hated gaelic and it's introduction was some kind of unconscious danger to me? The truth is I dont really know the answers to those questions but I looked deeper and that's what I call the Caithness psyche.
My Caithness psyche was raised by the Gaelic debate. Slowly to begin with but it became apparent that there were more reasons than the ones I was being accused of for opposing Gaelic in Caithness. I wasnt completely discriminatory against Gaelic because I believe it has it's place, even in Caithness, but there were other dynamics in action and I needed to look deeper.
I would say there is also a Gaelic psyche. I dont think someone has to be a local to have the Caithness psyche nor someone a native Gaelic speaker to have the Gaelic psyche but there is something solid about caithness. Its purely physical in it's nature. It's become what it is over the course of time and Gaelic has not been a part of it for generations and Caithness needs to be protected for what it is, not for what people want it to become.
How about a life without infleunce of the gaelic language - sorry if you find the definition pedantic, but I find the question churlish.
Your definition was far from pedantic scotsboy and because of Pepsis historical position on the org I was aware his question was loaded.
Hopefully he will come out from behind his curtain and stop whispering. :lol:
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 15:55
your definition was far from pedantic scotsboy and because of pepsis historical position on the org i was aware his question was loaded.
Hopefully he will come out from behind his curtain and stop whispering. :lol:
thank you for your reply!!! :)
edit: What's with the no-caps, craic? gleeber asks me to stop whispering, I shout at him, and the org reduces it to a hush. Is this 'normal'?
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 16:03
For those who believe in a Gaelic mafia...
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/comment/-John-Gibson-Gaelic-guff.6175598.jp
For those who believe in a Gaelic mafia...
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/comment/-John-Gibson-Gaelic-guff.6175598.jp
Nobody with a brain in Edinburgh reads John Gibson, he is IMHO the second most useless employee of the Evening news, he is the News equivalent of a cartoon strip!
Nobody with a brain in Edinburgh reads John Gibson, he is IMHO the second most useless employee of the Evening news, he is the News equivalent of a cartoon strip!
Who's the first most useless? :lol:
The Pepsi Challenge
24-Mar-10, 16:13
Nobody with a brain in Edinburgh reads John Gibson, he is IMHO the second most useless employee of the Evening news, he is the News equivalent of a cartoon strip!
The guy's a living legend. And his column is one of the best, and most-read pieces in the paper.
The guy's a living legend. And his column is one of the best, and most-read pieces in the paper.
who told you that?......John Gibson [lol] Journalists = living legends, Aye Right!!!!!
peter macdonald
24-Mar-10, 17:12
"Isn't it great how the MOD has led to an awakening of Nordic pride and culture in Caithness. I won't manage up myself on Saturday but would like to pose the question where do our Scandophiles go from here?"
They dont ....Im not sure any exist.. as I previously posted Ive never seen a queue of people wanting to learn any Scandinavian language in Caithness
As for Caithness Norn any one wishing to do so has a problem as no written form has survived since its demise in the 1400s. The last native Norn speaker in Shetland died in 1850 (although thats open to debate)
As Norn began to wane Gaelic became prevalent in the West of the County whereas the language that filled the void in the East was in fact the Old Scots tongue.
Not heard it mentioned in the debate??
PM
I hav'nt mentioned it Peter for 2 reasons. First reason I know nothing about it and secondly in the case of language and the demands of the Gaelic act my opposition rests firmly in the present.
Its obvious that if people are going to debate historical and traditional predilections there will be an uneasy debate because the argument then comes down to academics, dates and opinions,
Tradition is a very small cog in the overall picture and no one can claim presedence because of that fact. Not even Thurso who have the evidence of it's Norse connection in it's name.
peter macdonald
24-Mar-10, 18:03
Totally respect your views on this Gleeber.
I was giving some historical back ground to a discussion which seems to have polarised between Gaelic and Norse influences ignoring the significant role Scots tongue played in the linguistic culture of Caithness .I tried to allude to this in a previous post .
All the best in MacKays
PM
weeboyagee
24-Mar-10, 19:06
Its obvious that if people are going to debate historical and traditional predilections there will be an uneasy debate because the argument then comes down to academics, dates and opinions
The academics, dates and opinions matter little if the people of the area are in denial anyway? If they don't believe or accept the make-up of their heritage then they have little ability to sell it as an interest to the potential joe and jessie blogs that are out there wanting to know what like the natives are. Our heritage seems to be based on as far back as our memory goes - and therefore our history, is lost generation by generation as we give birth to progressive new generations. Suddenly we find that where we were so reliant on fishing boats, as generations pass, they become a thing of the past, and before we know it, could easily be denied as ever being part of our society. Unless, of course, some bright spark gets involved in making sure that particular subject matter is effectively captured :D
Gaelic in our county - has suffered in the same way. If we, for the sake of building a better future for ourselves, can manage to accept what we are now become and what we came from, we can most definitely identify better with our own modern society because we know what the past has made it. I might choose to fly the Gaelic flag, but I'd support the others that would wish to fly the other cultural flags - and they together, have made us what we are - fine wise-lek men and weemin, in the words of the Caithness poet!
Was the Gaelic Act such a bad thing that it allows us the ability in this modern world, to protect that element of history regardless of academics, dates and opinions? Two years ago there was a lot of "Caithness isn't Gaelic". There's not so much of that now that a lot have looked up the history books and learned to make sure what they say is or isn't correct.
So that brings us to the spend issue.
And that's where the train jumps the tracks.
The whole mind field of what's a correct spend in today's modern Caithness. We are no longer the Country of Caithness (not a mis-type!) - absorbed into the globalised administration of the Highlands which has active Gaels - and then the whole debate gets mushed into a "we were never Gaelic" to try and seperate us from the justification on Gaelic spend - which, of course, arguably, Caithnessians don't, in certain, and some specific areas, agree with.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
24-Mar-10, 19:09
Totally respect your views on this Gleeber.
I was giving some historical back ground to a discussion which seems to have polarised between Gaelic and Norse influences ignoring the significant role Scots tongue played in the linguistic culture of Caithness .I tried to allude to this in a previous post .
All the best in MacKays
PM
Agreed.
Gaelic only being one of many cultures - but is the point not being made that there is no modern day relevance, either for today or for the future?
WBG :cool:
Agreed.
Gaelic only being one of many cultures - but is the point not being made that there is no modern day relevance, either for today or for the future?
WBG :cool:
The difficulty is that the Gaels for some unknown reason have captured the market in the culture stakes and armed with an act of parliament are stamping their modern version of gaeldom on Caithness.
Heritage can be and is spoken about in books. There's no need to stamp the area in an alien language because at some time in our past it was spoken in a few corners of Caithness.
It's very disrespectful not to acknowledge the point of view of a caithness man and his opposition to Gaelic being forced on him in a 21 century world.
Neil Howie
25-Mar-10, 00:08
The difficulty is that the Gaels for some unknown reason have captured the market in the culture stakes and armed with an act of parliament are stamping their modern version of gaeldom on Caithness.
well said.
The road signs wont be english and old scots. They wont be english and caithness dialect. They will be english and gaelic.
The Pepsi Challenge
25-Mar-10, 09:12
So whom is on the panel, then?
weeboyagee
25-Mar-10, 18:06
PANEL SELECTED FOR GAELIC DEBATE
Does Gaelic play a part in the culture and history of Caithness?
A panel of 5 community representatives and a public audience will debate the role that Gaelic has to play in the culture and history of Caithness this Saturday 27th March 2010 in the MacKays Hotel, Wick.
Hosted by journalist and broadcaster, Lesley Riddoch, the panel will consist of well know Caithness faces James Campbell (Thurso) aka: gleeber and Harry Gray (Wick). Harry was awarded Caithness Citizen of the Year in 2006 for his support to the community and James has previously contributed to public forums on the introduction of the Scottish Government’s Gaelic Act 2005. Chairman of Ḅrd na Gàidhlig, Arthur Cormack, has been charged with rolling out the Scottish Government’s Gaelic Plan and will be on the panel while other panel members will include Rob Gibson, MSP and Neil Robertson, Chair of the Board of Directors of the Caithness Chamber of Commerce.
An open invitation has been given to all members of the public to attend and ask questions and already a number of people have indicated their attendance including local councillors, recording artists, senior representatives of Gaelic organisations and local historians.
The debate has been organised by the Local Organising Committee for Ṃd Ghallaibh 2010 as a prelude to the first National Ṃd, Scotland’s premier Gaelic Festival, to be held in the county this October.
Raymond Bremner, Convenor of the Local Organising Committee said “I am delighted with the response. With the community looking to diversify the economy in the run down of Dounreay, it’s important that we understand how we best consider the part our heritage has to play in our future and Gaelic in particular. The debate will allow everyone who has a point of view to put it forward.
“This certainly seems to have captured the imagination of many people and in view of recent concerns reported in the Press I would like to stress that we are not looking for a public slanging match. I have spoken to a number of our Councillors recently, who are fully supportive of the LOC and the Ṃd in Caithness this year, and some of them have said they are looking to attend. We want a good, honest and structured debate and I really hope that members of the local community turn up and make their views known.”
Guests and members of the public will be invited to gather at 1pm for a chance to meet and chat. A finger buffet is being provided by the Local Organising Committee and the debate gets underway at 2pm.
Lesley Riddoch will open the debate with key questions that have been raised recently in the public arena and on internet discussion forums.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
26-Mar-10, 16:30
So, who else is going along to support Gleeber then? Given the chance to have your say, are you going to say it? MacKay's Hotel, 2pm tomorrow - anytime between 1pm for the "meet and greet" and finger buffet.
You've got your chance now.
WBG :cool:
Bobinovich
26-Mar-10, 17:57
I have watched the Gaelic debates on the Org with much interest. As an incomer, albeit with over ¾ of my lifetime having been spent in Caithness, I don't feel it proper to interject my thoughts into the proceedings.
However I'd like to offer my support to Gleeber for tomorrow. His points of view most accurately portray how the majority of people I've talked to feel, and closely resemble my own opinions on the matter.
I wish him all the best in his quest to enlighten the panel and other meeting attendees.
cuddlepop
26-Mar-10, 18:05
The difficulty is that the Gaels for some unknown reason have captured the market in the culture stakes and armed with an act of parliament are stamping their modern version of gaeldom on Caithness.
Heritage can be and is spoken about in books. There's no need to stamp the area in an alien language because at some time in our past it was spoken in a few corners of Caithness.
It's very disrespectful not to acknowledge the point of view of a caithness man and his opposition to Gaelic being forced on him in a 21 century world.
I know WBG has clearly stated that this is a Caithness debate on the gaelic "culture" so gleeber I want to publically agree with you on the "gaelic force fed diet" which is also prevellant in Skye.
If your not "one of them" then your either ignored,insulted or ridiculed.
Maybe if the "gaelic mafia" came across as being less arrogant and had more humility maybe they'd win more friends.:D
Bringing it back to the top. It starts at 2 and finishes at 3.
Thanks for the support Bob. I think your idea that because not all of you comes from Caithness, that you should not be able to voice your opinion, is worthy of another thread.
Hopefully a few orgers will turn up, and if you do, come and say hello.
Unfortunately I can't come along in person (stuck in sunny Edinburgh ;))
I wish you all a lively, stimulating and satisfying debate. Will check back later to read about how it went. :)
Mr P Cannop
27-Mar-10, 19:50
what does everyone think of todays meting ??
what does everyone think of todays meting ??
I can only think they're all still in the bar singing bawdy songs ;).
I can only think they're all still in the bar singing bawdy songs ;).
Well there was a bar and there was a song. Very interesting afternoon. The proceedings were recorded and a link will be posted on the org shortly.
I'll leave Gleeber and WBG to post a summary.
But very well worth attending. If there are similar events in the future I would urg anyone with an interest in Gaelic and or Caithness to attend.
weeboyagee
28-Mar-10, 03:28
What a great day, just home and absolutely knackered! But before I hit the sack, my most sincere thanks to ducati and gleeber for turning up. To gleeber, a special thanks, you certainly represented the like minded very well. See you tomorrow on here for a wee catch up but for now, defo time for bed!
It was a good turn out WBG and although the debate seemed to be centred more on Gaelic as opposed to Caithness dialect there was enough meat on the bones to get a true picture of what people really feel.
Thanks for the invite although before yestreday thanks was not what I was thinking. :)
It was a good debate and some of the contributions were both emotional and deeply personal. I knew that would be the case but a debate like yesterdays was not designed to follow that path although in the bigger picture it cant be ignored.
The person I related to most was Murdo a native Gael who didnt speak English when he started school and was then forced not to talk Gaelic and threatened with punishment if he did. That was in 1970 in a Scotland not so far removed from the one we live in now. It was apartheid and I never realised it until yesterday.
Is it any wonder that the Gaels and those who become identified with the culture through learning the language and playing the music seem determined to keep the language alive? I dont think so and I now have a deeper underastanding of their position.
That being said I cannot ignore my own deeper feelings which don't have any Gaelic heritage running through their veins apart from the empathy I can feel for fellow Scotsmen who do. Murdos anger at his country for denying his heritage and forcing him to become what he was not, is genuine.
I think the Caithness opposition to the Gaelic Act is not an anti Gaelic stance. I wasnt sure until yesterday. It has similar implications to the deeper identity of belonging to caithness as the one Murdo had thrashed out of him 40 years ago.
I think yesterday may have planted seeds in both camps. I hope so.
I have watched the Gaelic debates on the Org with much interest. As an incomer, albeit with over ¾ of my lifetime having been spent in Caithness, I don't feel it proper to interject my thoughts into the proceedings.
Big Hughie a guy ive known most of my life had a similar position. I noticed at the beginning when a show of hands was called for about who was local Hughie never put his hand up. He's lived in Caithness almost as long as I have and like you Bob is as Caithness as me.
He brought up a really good point about something I had never considered. The Thurso accent. Its changed since the mid 50s when the town expanded with Dounreay being built. The Thurso accent is now very cosmopolitan and embraces more than just a Caithness heritage.
I had forgotten this but Hughie reminded us how we were discouraged from speaking Scots words in the classroom. Interesting!
peter macdonald
28-Mar-10, 16:42
Really vexed I missed this . Ive heard it was well balanced and informed Well done to WBG for getting it on the road
PM
It was a good turn out WBG .....
Thanks for the invite although before yestreday thanks was not what I was thinking.....
It was a good debate and some of the contributions were both emotional and deeply personal...
I think yesterday may have planted seeds in both camps. I hope so.
Thanks for that gleeber. I admire you for sticking your head above the parapet on this issue even if you did have to be "persuaded". :)
Does anyone have a link to the recording which ducati mentioned earlier?
Thanks for that gleeber. I admire you for sticking your head above the parapet on this issue even if you did have to be "persuaded". :)
Does anyone have a link to the recording which ducati mentioned earlier?
I think it will be a few days at least because it will need editing etc.
northener
29-Mar-10, 09:49
I'd really liked to have been at this, unfortunately I was down in Pitlochry for the weekend. I look forward to seeing and hearing all about it on here.
weeboyagee
29-Mar-10, 10:43
Good morning everyone! Bright and breezy, with snow - no-one told mother nature that the clocks went forward this weekend obviously!
What a weekend.
My apologies for not managing to get on line and updating you with all that was going on, it was going to be difficult to get the time before now when I look back at the weekend but reading the papers over the morning cup of coffee - have got a minute to post this.
First of all - many thanks to everyone who turned up. I was, to say the least, very apprehensive about how the debate was going to go - so much to organise, so many different views expected etc.
Most of the panel were there for 1 pm - which gave everyone a chance to have a chat and catch up. I was really surprised at the amount of folk that were already there and yet we still had three quarters of an hour to go before start. By the time that we got started more than DOUBLE the amount of folk we expected had arrived (nearly 100), leading to the inevitable setting out of more chairs. The panel were through in the bar with Lesley and the Press - I am sure it was the debate format they were talking about over tea!
I didn't quite realise who was all in the audience when I took to the lecturn to introduce the panel and Lesley at first but I soon realised who all was there when the debate started. Although I was at the front I recognised the weel kent vocal contributions from Caithness. I soon realised that the "other viewpoints" of Caithness had turned up which I was delighted with. One of the born-and-bred locals of Berriedale who staunchly believes that Gaelic will be the ruin of the Caithness Language (Nancy Nicholson made sure we knew the difference between "language" and "dialect"!!), another who advocated the only use for bilingual signage is where the initial signage is unclear or needs to be enhanced. Then one of the panelists who first answered the opening debate question "Is Gaelic part of the heritage and culture of Caithness" as yes, addressed the hall and said that it was his opinion though, that Gaelic bilingual signage had resigned the language to a "hobby" of the Gaels, but he then focused on the Caithness Towng as a "hobby" of the Caithness Fowk as well - I note that only the former statement has been referred to by the Press, so make up your mind yourselves how the Press are steering this. The referral I believe, meaning that neither group were giving the real attention to their "language" that was required, if it is going to survive.
Harry Gray, who is one of the most respected folks in Caithness, being awarded Caithness Citizen of the Year in 2006, answered the opening question. With his reference to the Gaels through the centuries in Caithness, their language, their contribution and their place in the booming herring industry when Caithness had Gaelic Language Church Services, he firmly stated that Gaelic is most definitely part of our heritage and culture. He also, in only the way the Harry can do, immediately brought humour to the debate and went on to say about the wee Caithness boy who came home from school and told his Dad that a cow is no longer a coo and a dove is no longer a doo!
Nancy Nicholson (Caithness Edinburgh Asssociation) took to the panel in place of Neil Robertson, Chair of Caithness Chamber of Commerce, who was delayed but made it right on the stroke of 2pm. Another heavy Caithness accent, Nancy referred to the fact that she doesn't mind being considered to have Gaelic heritage as long as she is not referred to as being "Heilan' "!
Rob Gibson was armed with documentation! I need to refer to my notes that will be in the debate report when it's drafted - before I can give a quick summary of his contribution! But it was important none-the-less - he was first to get ticked off from Lesley for talking through the debate when he was trying to explain something to his fellow panelist Gleeber, at the same time that someone from the audience was addressing the debate! Rob referred to the forthcoming question we will all be asked to consider "do we speak Scots?". Not one hand - Caithness or Gael - went up in the air!
And then there was Gleeber. Who, for wondering if this was the worst thing he ever did in his life, said the things he has always said - and no, he wasn't especially sat beside Arthur! Although - their debate carried on in the bar long after the well-over-run debate finished.
With the exception of what's been reported in the press, Gleeber stated that the only Gaelic he's ever heard of in Caithness is "Slainte mhath!" and that's about the only consideration he thought Gaelic had in the county's heritage and culture in today's modern Caithness! He also stated his opposition, in common with other Caithness folk, to the Gaelic language act. Both he and Harry mentioned about this being a step to far. There were lots of notes taken, photographs, recordings and the BBC were there for the duration and interviewed a number of folks - including gleeber, at the end.
The audience politely (and loudly!) clapped the statements of parties, where the appreciate the point. But most importantly, as many of the audience as possible, were given the chance to say something - more than the panel members and not one contribution wasn't worth something or was without credit.
The lad that made the briefest but most poignant contribution was Murdo. Who came along with his partner. He's from Lewis originally, and lived and worked in Caithness for nearly 10 years where most of his children were born and brought up. His partner is from Harris, but has also lived and worked in Caithness for most of her adult life - whose son, was born and is being brought up in Caithness. Not only were they Gaels living in Caithness seeing how some of the Caithness fowk are trying to keep their identity, he let them know how he has lost his language through having it replaced at school with English.
The debate started bang on 2 o' clock and was supposed to run to 3.30 pm but over ran well past 4 o' clock and some of us (as referred to by gleeber) didn't leave the hotel until much later. So relieved that the ambulances and police on standby weren't needed. When I got up to finally thank everyone and close the debate, there was a real sense of emotion on the parts of many folks - and I'm glad I've left my post til now - because it's pretty obvious reading gleeber's and ducati's posts on here - and after talking to Lesely about how she felt at the end of it. Make no mistake - the stance of folks may have changed little, but the level of undertstanding and appreciation was elevated to a level that no press article could have delivered - and that in itself has been long overdue. Lesley's full page colour article in the Scotsman today does it justice - jaw jaw rather than war war.
In as much as we can appreciate the Welsh Male Voice choirs singing without understanding what they are singing about, there was as many in the audience - Gael and non-Gael, who asked for a SONG as they were coming in. And at the end I sprung the request on Arthur. Even gleeber appreciated that one. The debate continues, but the bogey-men on either side no longer exist - they were there as real people, not the "gangs" and "rogue individuals" from either side, that we don't see or don't know other than through affected press reporting. Even at the end, the audience did not know that our Councillors were represented and had contributed, until I asked them to stand up and be identified. Former councillors were also there and there was a councillor from outwith our county also there.
More to come, but that will keep you going for now - let's see what else the press says today, P&J page 6, Scotsman - full page article by Lesley Riddoch, and An La on BBC Alba tonight at 8pm if it's not already been on Aithris na Maidne on the radio. Gleeber might not speak Gaelic, but he was interviewed in English for the news as well as others.
I can't thank everyone enough for their support - no matter which side they approached the debate from. The ceilidh in Strathy afterwards was a fine evening to end it off, with Mary Ann Kennedy and others - Gaelic song, Scots Ballad, Caithness Dialect recitation - everyone was in fine form and a number of folk who were at the debate also turned up.
I spent yesterday reflecting!
WBG :cool:
helensquine
30-Mar-10, 11:32
Just to add my own thanks to everyone who turned up at the Mackays debate on Saturday -- I'm editing the audio right now before my husband and I go off to Berlin tomorrow for a week's holidays!
So if it recorded ok it shoukld be up on my site www.lesleyriddoch.com (http://www.lesleyriddoch.com) later today (Tuesday 30th March). Ill post again to confirm.
Lesley
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Mar-10, 12:38
Thanks for the heads up, Helensquine.
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Mar-10, 14:12
From: http://www.lesleyriddoch.com/2010/03/learning-to-put-our-differences-aside-is-the-only-way-ahead.html#more
"Trosk, for example, is a Caithness word (oft used by my Wick mother) which is closest to glaikit in Scots or slack-jawed and lazy in English."
For me, it has always been a word commonly given to a "useless woman".
From: http://www.lesleyriddoch.com/2010/03/learning-to-put-our-differences-aside-is-the-only-way-ahead.html#more
"Trosk, for example, is a Caithness word (oft used by my Wick mother) which is closest to glaikit in Scots or slack-jawed and lazy in English."
For me, it has always been a word commonly given to a "useless woman".
Must be often used in the wrong context then Pepsi, as surely there is no such thing!!;)
[quote=
For me, it has always been a word commonly given to a "useless woman".[/quote]
Surley Pepsi, there are no women in your life :eek:
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Mar-10, 15:04
Plenty good women in my life. None of them useless, either, I might add.
Plenty good women in my life. None of them useless, either, I might add.
You see, you've been told to say that [lol]
I think it was Gleeber who mentioned the change in the Thirsa accent/dialect over recent decades, this is very noticeable amongst the young..........I seem to remember it starting around the mid-70s when it became fashionable (introduced by a crowd from Castletown) to mang-ee-cant, which seemed to be some variation on a tinker dialect, this has somehow found itself into the mainstream and I cringe every time I go back north and hear this drivel spoken.
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Mar-10, 16:25
Obviously, there's a clear difference in diction/ accent between Thurso and Wick, but I also notice a sublte difference in accent/ dialect between Castletown and Halkirk. Amazing how just a few short miles can make all the difference in the sound of people's voices. Even in this modern age, it's still nice to hear such a contrast so close apart.
Metalattakk
30-Mar-10, 16:58
Amazing how just a few short miles can make all the difference in the sound of people's voices.
Even more pronounced between Mey and Scarfskerry. One is pure Caithnessian, the other is mostly southern English.
I blame the parents etc., etc.
You mean people from SCARSCRAY say they are from SCARF SKERRY?
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