View Full Version : What is going on at Lybster / Missing Person Lybster
chocolatechip
03-Mar-10, 23:12
We can see a flashing lights and all sorts going. And a Helicopter
Looks like the Coastguard are lookin fer someone.
Coastguard helo up doing coastline search.
http://www.northern.police.uk/news-item.htm?item_id=PR2132_2010
Police are asking anyone who has seen Sammy Macdonald of Jeffrey St since yesterday to contact them
chocolatechip
03-Mar-10, 23:19
Just been told that some one has gone missing.
They are searching sheds and gardens so don't be alarmed.
Message to CFM - thought it best to pass on here too.
Hope all turns out well.
Dave
Invisible
03-Mar-10, 23:24
Hearing the choppers overhead, i thought i was going mad
Sammy Macdonald missing since yesterday -
http://www.northern.police.uk/news-item.htm?item_id=PR2132_2010
goldenguernsey
03-Mar-10, 23:27
heard the helicopter earlier, hope they find him its freezing outside
Tilly Teckel
03-Mar-10, 23:28
I'm about 2.5 miles inland and they hovered over my house and the surrounding area for ages, searching with their light. Seem to have gone back down toward the coast now.
goldenguernsey
03-Mar-10, 23:41
the helicopter just went over again at clyth, hope the guy is ok and found soon
whirlybird off for some go go juice at Wick
porshiepoo
04-Mar-10, 07:51
So that's what it was. The helicopter was over ours last night with the search lights going, we assumed they were looking for a villain.
Bless, I hope they find him.
We're going to check our land in a minute as we have sheds everywhere.
Fingers crossed he's OK.
Is there any news? There's nothing on the police site :(
No news yet the search is still on poor man hope they find him soon.:~(
porshiepoo
04-Mar-10, 11:52
The poor man. I hope they find him soon, safe and well.
The chopper was searching all the land near us last night and we assumed they were looking for some villain - kind of wish they were now!
I just hope the guy is somewhere warm and safe oblivious to what is going on. Any amount of time spent outside at night has got to be a cause for concern.
I would assume that they're not looking for search volunteers?
Bobinovich
04-Mar-10, 13:27
Are CASST (http://www.casst.org.uk/) (Caithness And Sutherland Search Team) involved in the search operation - hopefully so as having such a group on the proverbial doorstep and not being called would seem to be rather daft IMO.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-10, 14:11
Are CASST (http://www.casst.org.uk/) (Caithness And Sutherland Search Team) involved in the search operation - hopefully so as having such a group on the proverbial doorstep and not being called would seem to be rather daft IMO.
I would assume so as a guy has just walked past my house with his GSD doing a search.
Searchers also came through here an hour or so ago. Unfortunately I'd let the dogs out so they got a very rude welcome!
chocolatechip
04-Mar-10, 15:48
Is there any-more news haven't heard any thing for a while.
porshiepoo
04-Mar-10, 16:13
They're currently looking on our land with their dogs.
Nothing found yet!
Sorry Porshiepoo we are not there. CASST have not been contacted by Northern the dogs you see are up from Kinloss I believe. On the door step are a highly trained SAR team of dog and handler plus all necessary support staff and we are being deliberatley ignored. WE want to help they don't want us to.
achingale
04-Mar-10, 16:35
I hope he is found soon. All our thoughts are with the family and friends.
Ah, typical Northern Police competence then - bring in dogs from miles away instead of using a local resource that knows the area.
I've seen the CASST dogs training at local quarries and wow, they were excellent. They used them at Stockline too.
Let's hope Northern see sense . Then again, it'd be the first time!
BishBashBosh
04-Mar-10, 18:29
iv also seen the CASST guys out and about after speaking to them last summer in wick at a charity event at the river! They were fast and very professional!
So much for Article 2 of the Human Rights Act: "Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law." Surely the first few hours are the most important in searching for someone and yet they won't use the closest resource?
Any chance to find a missing person shouldn't be denied because of whatever petty politics are going on in the background.
C'mon Northern, grow up a bit, stop wasting time in emergency situations (again), stop wasting public money bringing teams all the way up when you haven't given the local experts a chance!
How many people have suffered already because CASST haven't been used? I know no-one can guarantee to find someone in time every time but because of this we will never know how many people could have been saved.
If a person has gone missing then it makes sence to get assistance from Search and Rescue, including Trained Search Dogs and their Handlers.
Since Time is of an extreme importance in any search operation then it is of high priority to get a all necessary teams to the site as quickly as possible.
In caithness we are Very Lucky to have CASST, Caithness And Sutherland Search Team), yet for some reason the powers that be have called in a team from Kinloss.
This is not only a waste of Money it is also a waste of Precious Time. Time that could have been spent in searching and could in turn save a life.
There is an experienced Search Team sitting down doing nothing within the County and you would think they would have been the first ones called out, but no, a team from Kinloss is called in. Look at the time wasted in them getting here and not only that but they do not know the County.
This is a disgrace that CASST were not called out. If Places like Glasgow call them out then why does no one in their own County do so.
Ah, typical Northern Police competence then - bring in dogs from miles away instead of using a local resource that knows the area.
I've seen the CASST dogs training at local quarries and wow, they were excellent. They used them at Stockline too.
Let's hope Northern see sense . Then again, it'd be the first time!
Have been reading these posts & hope they find him.
FYI...There are many reasons Police don't use unauthorized Search Teams...these can range from Insurance purposes to someone being inadvertently bitten and the list goes on.......and if something did go wrong then everyone would be up in arms...One is damned if they do and Damned if they don't.
Training of Police/ Search & rescue dogs takes a long long time and one must have the proper animal etc etc....and again the list goes on....Unless one is involved in the process there are many pitfalls.....
Perhaps someone should suggest to them to gain acceptance from the Police......been there...done that!
I was looking at their Website and the last entry I can find was in 2004.....
Heard from a very good source that there were police dogs up from Inverness as well as local ones from Dounreay. All insured, cleared and certified. Was there a need for any more?. latest news hot of the press. "The search has been called of and unfortunately no person located".
Hi there sandyr1,
Quite agree that I hope they find them. y
You have made some very valid point but I'd like to respond if I may.
I know for certain that CASST have their own Insurance plus over here the Insurance for the Police covers anyone who volunteers to help, otherwise - just as an example - people wouldn't be allowed to volunteer to line-walk search.
As for someone being inadvertantly bitten I am afraid that does go along with the territory of owning a dog let alone doing anything else with them but none of the CASST dogs are trained to bite (if they aren't trained to do something it is most unlikely that they will especially with the kind of training they go though) unlike the GSD's used by the police. This also leads me nicely into the training.
The dogs used are not just pets whose owners suddenly decide they can do the job. The head trainer for the group has decades of experience at all sorts of different kinds of jobs with dogs, from bomb disposal, drug detection, police and SAR, and he is a member of the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers. He really does know what he is doing and wouldn't dream of letting anyone do the job unless he knew they were ready, CASST is affiliated with another SAR group further south who does all their tests too, just to make sure there is absolutely no bias whatsoever.
There is some politics in the background that is causing the problem, I believe something to do with Mountain Rescue teams (Caithness is pretty flat and totally different terrain to any mountain!) and certain high ranking members of the police being on their committee or some such... I do not know the full story I am afraid so I cannot comment further.
They do have a new website too but I can't find it either, I'm sure someone will post it at some point but I'm sure you'll agree that the least of their concerns is an up to date website when someone's life is at stake.
Anyway, I hope that clears up a few things. I didn't want you thinking that the people who are supporting the team on here were supporting a bunch of cowboys.
Instead of complaining on a public forum why doesn't CASST get together with Northern Constabulary and sort out what is required to be "on their books".
I'm sure if they are as trained and certified as stated it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Hi there sandyr1,
There is some politics in the background that is causing the problem, I believe something to do with Mountain Rescue teams (Caithness is pretty flat and totally different terrain to any mountain!) and certain high ranking members of the police being on their committee or some such... I do not know the full story I am afraid so I cannot comment further.
Don't know any of "the story" but for everyone's information I believe Assynt mountain rescue team were there today. Maybe they don't realise Caithness is pretty flat lol.
Instead of complaining on a public forum why doesn't CASST get together with Northern Constabulary and sort out what is required to be "on their books".
I'm sure if they are as trained and certified as stated it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Thank you Banshee..
I know of these Volunteer Groups and they are invaluable...Likely as you say there are some petty...........involved.
We use them here...where I am... and I have coordinated same.
You know...it just takes 'people talking to people"...Remember what Sir Robert Peel said in 1829....'The Police are the Public and the Public are the Police'. And I know that both the Police and the Public regularly forget that. And at no time did I think Cowboys, just perhaps trying to explain 'things' so that rather than slagging the 'Cops', we have an understanding of the system. I am sure it is more difficult nowadays with new Police Officers moving around, and not being permnanently in the district.
And of course the 'Gov't Units,(and I use that term loosely for the Kinloss and Dounreay Units) even from a distance away, would feel slighted if they were ignored...
Sensitive issues, but a wee bitty of coordination and talking, will usually suffice....I think I said earlier...Been there/done that! tks
Instead of complaining on a public forum why doesn't CASST get together with Northern Constabulary and sort out what is required to be "on their books".
I'm sure if they are as trained and certified as stated it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Rourkee we have tried oh boy we have tried. The constabulary are only interested in mountain rescue, if you are not a member of the MRC of S you are persons non grata end of. Probably something to do with the £2million + they have received from our Government over the past five years or so.
Despite all the above surely it is the missing person that is important. Every possible resource should be used to find them. If someone I knew was missing and I thought a tamed ferret could find them I am sure I would send for it.
Lets all hope and pray the poor soul is found soon, safe and well.
Well, just finished work and thought I'd have a wee peek at the forum in the hope that Samuel Macdonald had been found or had safely turned up.
Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.
The forum seems to have generated considerable debate about who Northern Constabulary should use and I'd like to add my own thoughts about the debate.
Everyone has the right to go missing if they want to. If someone goes missing through illness/ getting lost then we as society want to do our bit to help them.
I'm sorry if any frontline cop in Northern Constabulary thinks I was criticising them. I was not.
I am not a member of CASST nor related to anyone who is in the team. I have seen them in training and have talked to them.
Another contributor spoke about human rights. The nub of argument is that the government and public authorities can't do anything that is an action against someone's rights. I'll return to this point later.
Northern Constabulary has no obligation whatsoever to organise a search for a missing person. As former Chief Constable of Lothian and Borders Police and HM Chief Insp of Constabulary in Scotland, Paddy Tompkins said in his recent Review of Water Rescue in Scotland, the responsibility rests with each
individual constable, NOT a police force. The responsibility comes from their oath on taking office and their individual responsibility under the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 to 'preserve life'.
Police forces generally ensure any agency they request work on their behalf is up to scratch.
CASST have satisfied the requirements to conduct work with their search dogs with fire brigades as part of the National Urban Search and Rescue Dog Group. The group was set up by the UK Government after 9/11. ACPO recognise the assessments these dogs undergo as enabling them to take part in missing person searches.
CASST have tried for many years to achieve recognition by Northern Constabulary. Northern have never turned out to actually see them in action.
So it seems we have a qualified local SAR team that has qualified for use at sub incidents as the Stockline factory collapse in Glasgow but the local Force will not use them because they are not members of the Mtn Rescue Committee
of Scotland. Forgive me for my stupidity, but where are the mountains in Lybster?
So Police dogs from Inverness and Dounreay have been involved in the
searches. Fine, but if any dog will bite surely it's a Police dog?
CASST are 15 mins away. Dounreay is a bit further, Inverness is certainly further still. So, when requesting an urgent response which organisation would
it be sensible to call on?
So, perhaps Northern Constabulary might want to enlighten us as to why they continue to refuse to recognise CASST and use their dogs and personnel in
searches for local people who go missing?
I for one don't understand the decision.
Going back to human rights - the government and police force can't do
anything that contravenes someone's rights. The right to life exists. If Northern Constabulary prevented CASST from searching if they turned up on scene and offered to help, they would be acting against the person's rights.
Obstruction of a police officer doesn't arise as stopping them searching is unlawful and there's no crime scene unless there's a crime.
Interesting, well it was to me, that's why I've related what I know.
I dearly hope the chap is found or turns up safe and well.
Aaldtimer
05-Mar-10, 04:22
I was asking myself the same question...what's to stop them just going ahead and conducting their own search procedures?:confused
To clarifiy, Aauldtimer, we have offered our serivces to Northern and that of two more teams from NUSARDG(S) but as yet have not been contacted. If anyone from the Lybster community wants to have an SAR team, they only have to telephone and we will be there. None of us would want to distress family and friends any further by just turning up and a possible confrontation with Northern ensuing.
Hello Veekay,
You seem to be connected with CASST and I take it you are saying that you have contacted the police to offer your services for this search but they haven't contacted you back?
If that is the case and I don't doubt you, then that is rude and unacceptable that our local police are behaving like that.
According to the press they have been using volunteers. If they are doing so but ignoring you then one concludes they haven't a clue what they're supposed to be doing.
Or perhaps they're too busy answering Freedom of Information queries to have the time to contact you.
I read that they're using five search dogs from the police and mountain rescue. It's a big area and there's room for many more.
Since when were the coastguard responsible for checking roadside verges too? I thought they were specialised at the coast but according to the press the mountain rescue are on the coast and coastguard are at the sides of roads.
It all seems a bit muddled.
You're quite right about not just turning up and causing a scene. It would cause distress. I think there needs to be some serious questions raised by our MP or MSPs over this whole matter.
porshiepoo
05-Mar-10, 14:16
TBH I don't think friends and family of the missing man will particularly care where the help comes from as long as it's there.
It does seem to be a complete waste of resources not to use CASST as they're a highly trained team who could be of untold help.
I really do not know how these things work but do they need police permission to join in the search? Would it be criminal of them to just get out there and look?
Like I say I would imagine the family would be grateful of all and any help available to them. An altercation does not have to be inevitable!
The police have been here and have done a very thorough job of searching our land with their dogs.
Can there be many more places for them to look? They certainly seem to have done a good and thorough job so far.
Hello Veekay,
I read that they're using five search dogs from the police and mountain rescue. It's a big area and there's room for many more.
Since when were the coastguard responsible for checking roadside verges too? I thought they were specialised at the coast but according to the press the mountain rescue are on the coast and coastguard are at the sides of roads.
Don't belive all you get from the press. The Coastguard's searched the coast first then moved inland. Mountain rescue initially searched inland round the croft where the gentleman lived then moved to other areas. Both these search teams are "specialised" at searching many different types of terrian and are happy to help in any circumstances.
As for plenty room for more dogs, there needs to be a person in control of all the teams so that the same ares are not covered over and over again. All search teams must be able to work together.
BishBashBosh
05-Mar-10, 18:08
i dont think the question of wether the teams out there are the right ones which iam getting from some of these posts, but the time period which there could hav already been a search team out there already who are
close to the area and know it well! even using resorces like CASST until other teams from outside can get there would give this lost person a better chance 2 be found!
which at the end of the day is the important thing! not who should b used and who shouldnt or who has the better training! or the better speciallity!
Bish bash bosh, you are absolutely right.
I don't think anybody was criticising the coastguard or mountain rescue.
But Chief Inspector Reiss has some explaining to do over not calling in a local team first.
Metalattakk
06-Mar-10, 02:35
But Chief Inspector Reiss has some explaining to do over not calling in a local team first.
Go ahead and ask Chief Inspector Reiss why CASST weren't allowed to participate. I dare you.
CASST know exactly why they weren't allowed to participate.
You, however, don't.
Ooh Metalattakk, I think you were having a go at me there. Do I detect that I touched a nerve?
As a concerned public spirited person I fail to understand why the Police are not using people trained for searching but happy to use local people without training. Everyone wants to do their best and I commend local volunteers, police on the ground, the various dog handlers and mountain rescue people on the ground, and coastguard.
So why the animosity from you towards CASST? You seem to know so why not let the rest of us into your secret? Are you Chief Inspector Reiss or are you just trying to stir things?
I'm sure that all police officers are accountable for their decisions and actions and must be willing to explain these. Is that not what's happening down Glasgow way where firefighters and police are being quizzed in court over rescue of a lawyer who died?
So please Metallattakk, please enlighten us:
is it because they're mostly incomers and will never be locals? Is it because they're not competent? Is it because the police don't like them? Is it because mountain rescue say they've not to use them?
C'mon Metalattakk, you say you know so enlighten the rest of Caithness.
Metalattakk
06-Mar-10, 14:28
C'mon Metalattakk, you say you know so enlighten the rest of Caithness.
Where did I say that I 'knew' anything? That's your perception, nothing else.
As I said before, go and ask Chief Inspector Reiss instead of spreading malicious ignorance on the internet.
Where did I say that I 'knew' anything? That's your perception, nothing else.
As I said before, go and ask Chief Inspector Reiss instead of spreading malicious ignorance on the internet.
Reading your post again, it was implied :roll:
Is there any news yet?
Metalattakk
06-Mar-10, 14:31
But have they found him?
Unfortunately not, according to official sources:
http://www.northern.police.uk/
northener
06-Mar-10, 14:46
By coincidence, I've just been on the Northern Plod site to email a query as to why NP seem reluctant to utilise a local resource for SAR.
Email: mail@northern.pnn.police.uk (mail@northern.pnn.police.uk)
"Error 404 - page not found" :roll:
(Edit): Hang on...it's working now.
By coincidence, I've just been on the Northern Plod site to email a query as to why NP seem reluctant to utilise a local resource for SAR.
Email: mail@northern.pnn.police.uk (mail@northern.pnn.police.uk)
"Error 404 - page not found" :roll:
How convenient.....
I think that is your browser that doesn't know how to handle a mailto: url.
Metalattakk
06-Mar-10, 14:48
LOL! That's just a missing mailto tag, that's all.
You've still got the email address there though, yes? Shouldn't be too difficult to Copy and Paste it into your mail client.
Edit: Read the small print too:
Please note: Email is not monitored 24 hours a day. Emails to the above address are only monitored between 8am and 6pm Monday to Friday. If you require an immediate response please phone the station relevant to the area from which you are calling.
changilass
06-Mar-10, 14:50
As the person is not yet found, would it not be better leaving these disscusions till he is.
How would you feel if it was a member of your family that was missing and folks were more interested in political rows.
Have a heart folks and save it for later.
Thank you Metalattakk for clearing up that matter. We're no further forward then.
My purpose is not to 'spread malicious ignorance' but seeking answers to what appears to be a situation where Northern Constabulary as an organisation (not the frontline cops or necessarily the local command team) isn't using common sense. If I was missing I'd like to think they'd use every possible agency, especially the closest first, as another contributor suggested.
I see this story has hit the P&J as well as it saying there was a single dog out yesterday. So why not use CASST's dogs?
On being appointed to Wick, Police Superintendent Julian Innes said- “Police cannot work in isolation and I aim to build on the good relationship that we have with members of the public and other agencies in our communities.”
Perhaps we'll see some progress soon then.
Anyway, what's the Police Board members position on all of this? Are you each going to quiz Chief Constable Latimer on this?
As for Sammy Macdonald , I understand he's still missing, poor man. And the police don't intend to carry on with their searches.
My thoughts are with his relatives.
changilass
06-Mar-10, 15:00
State your source or keep it to yourself, this is just plain cruel
Metalattakk
06-Mar-10, 15:00
My purpose is not to 'spread malicious ignorance' but seeking answers to what appears to be a situation.../
If you want answers, you have to learn to address the right questions to the right people.
Throwing accusations and veiled innuendo around on the internet isn't the right way to get your answers now, is it?
northener
06-Mar-10, 15:01
I think that is your browser that doesn't know how to handle a mailto: url.
LOL! That's just a missing mailto tag, that's all.
You've still got the email address there though, yes? Shouldn't be too difficult to Copy and Paste it into your mail client.
Edit: Read the small print too:
Sorted - just a coincidence that I 'lost' the page and my Email was slow to open.
BTW I wasn't implying some sort of 'conspiracy', just having a hissy fit.:Razz
Anyway , lets see if this gets a response:
Hello,
I have an enquiry relating to the disappearance of a local man in Lybster and the search that was conducted in an attempt to find him.
There has been a deal of discussion upon www.Caithness.Org (http://www.caithness.org/) relating to this incident and the deployment of SAR groups in relation to it. http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=101087 (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=101087)
It would appear that there is a body of opinion that suggests that Northern Constabulary are actively excluding CASST (Caithness And Sutherland Search Team) from any involvement in incidents such as the one outlined above. This has (if you read the thread on Caithness.org) led to some criticism of Northern Constabulary for calling in MRT teams from far away and not involving CASST at all.
Bearing in mind the tragic result of the delayed rescue that is in the main news at the moment, perhaps now would be a good time for Northern Constabulary to explain their stance regarding the use of CASST.
Please note I have no connection with CASST whatsoever and am not looking to criticize – merely to understand the reasoning behind Northern Constabularies apparent mistrust of a local resource.
Yours sincerely
State your source or keep it to yourself, this is just plain cruel
My source
Wick Harbour Master.
Just to keep you happy Changilass I have deleted post, let someone else say it.
Looks like I was right then.
Boozeburglar
06-Mar-10, 15:55
Wouldn't it be a good time for everyone to take a break from speculation?
Just catching up on my lurking and reading and what a couple of days it seems to have been.
I hope the poor man turns up, for the sake of his family and friends.
A lot to take in here and I think Boozeburglar is right, we need an end to the speculation.
Who in Caithness would be able to give a solid opinion on whether the actions of Northern Constabulary were at odds with the poor mans 'right to life' ? Who would be able to say if CASST could have made a difference? I don't know!
BUT
I do know that if it were a member of my own family in this position I'd want EVERY available resource used to try and help. Forget the politics.
Let's all hope for a swift resolution on the poor man's whereabouts. I think you would all agree our thoughts and best wishes are with his family.
Sadly they have found him
http://www.northern.police.uk/news-item.htm?item_id=PR2144_2010
Sincere condolences to all the family and friends of the poor man.
As a concerned public spirited person I fail to understand why the Police are not using people trained for searching but happy to use local people without training. Everyone wants to do their best and I commend local volunteers, police on the ground, the various dog handlers and mountain rescue people on the ground, and coastguard.
So why the animosity from you towards CASST? You seem to know so why not let the rest of us into your secret? Are you Chief Inspector Reiss or are you just trying to stir things?
is it because they're mostly incomers and will never be locals? Is it because they're not competent? Is it because the police don't like them? Is it because mountain rescue say they've not to use them?
I believe the "local people without training" were taken under the wing of the Coastguard who prefer to have anyone who wants to search under their watchful and profesional eye rather than wandering around and possibly becoming a casualty themselves.
Why is it that when someone is not happy they always start on about "locals" and "incomers" etc. c'mon grow up.
And as for animosity, some people are fed up hearing the bleating of romours when there is a problem that can only be sorted out by CASST and the Police, so how about leaving it to them and not trying to guess the problem.
I'd also like to add my very sincere condolences to the family concerned.
I think in the circumstances this thread should be closed
I think in the circumstances this thread should be closed
Hear hear.
I agree with you gillsib !!
I would have thought that there has been more than enough arguing on this thread as to who's right and who's wrong and what should/shouldn't have been done!
Under whatever circumstances a poor man has lost his life....
isn't that "enough" ......???
Lets take time to respect his family/friends at this very sad time.........
Awww what a shame his poor poor family :~( What a sad loss, Our thoughts go out to his family at this sad time.
I agree with the person that had said if it was one of my family that had gone missing I for one would want everybody and anybody reguardless of colour,force,religeon, locality etc out looking for them at least then I would have known everything had been done and it looks like they had in this case also. It was so nice of everyone who helped to have taken the time to look thats what kindness and humanity is about these acts of kindness make a good community.
porshiepoo
06-Mar-10, 19:24
My thoughts go out to the friends and family of the guy too. Everyone was hoping for a happy ending.:(
I personally don't think there's a need to shut this thread.
People were only giving opinions on a search operation and I suspect that now this terrible news is in that most people will be posting condolences as opposed to anything else.
So sorry to hear this very sad news.
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