View Full Version : Nato strike kills a number of Afghanistan civilians
A "number" is 33 dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8527627.stm
As aAdolf Eichmann once said about holocaust.
"..10 is a lot, 100 more and anything over that is a statistic.." (or words to that effect)
And this was not even in area where NATO is engaged in a large offensive
We reap what we sow
northener
22-Feb-10, 14:07
Innocent people get killed in every conflict across the planet.
And this was not even in area where NATO is engaged in a large offensive We reap what we sow
"Reap what we sow" - same comment for any war/conflict?
Don't really understand why you've brought the Nazi holocaust into it!
I have a worry here. (Apart obviously from the appalling loss of life).
I am reasonably aware of the many air sorties being carried out across Afghanistan and there nature has been of close air support. So a GR4 or whatever would be called by ground forces for a show of strength or as a last resort a bomb or missile run on a target that was an immediate threat.
Without knowing what was the action being engaged in here, it appears to me that this is more akin to strategic bombing, if NATO are targeting the movement of insurgents.
Without knowing what was the action being engaged in here, it appears to me that this is more akin to strategic bombing, if NATO are targeting the movement of insurgents.
'A Nato statement said it was thought the convoy contained Taliban insurgents on their way to attack Afghan and foreign military forces.' (From Link above #1)
'A Nato statement said it was thought the convoy contained Taliban insurgents on their way to attack Afghan and foreign military forces.' (From Link above #1)
Yes thanks for that. So I thought the usual use of air power would be to wait untill they actually were attacking so poss. seeing a shift in tactics?
The connection to Holocaust is to show how immune we have come to the killing of innocent people.
.
The people who died were in three minibuses travelling in convoy in daylight. I doubt this is how resistance fighters travel
The connection to Holocaust is to show how immune we have come to the killing of innocent people.
.
The people who died were in three minibuses travelling in convoy in daylight. I doubt this is how resistance fighters travel
Holocaust: Premeditated Murder
Afghanistan: misidentification - unintentional
Isn't "news" a funnny thing.
We are now getting a string of headline news stories when there is a civilian death in Afghanistan, yet about 500,000 civilians lost their lives as a result of the Iraq invasion. Are they the 'un-people' then, and therefore no need to report on them ?
Yes thanks for that. So I thought the usual use of air power would be to wait untill they actually were attacking so poss. seeing a shift in tactics?
No, it's the same old tactics, one dead American soldier and there is outcry at home but kill as many Afghani women and children as you like, it aint gonna lose us any votes.
The message to Afghanis is simple, stay at home and you get your house bombed just in case there is a resistance fighter in there. Try to make it to safety and get your vehicles bombed on the off chance you are resistance fighters on their way to attack us.
Ignoring Fred's usual. The BBC news (telly) reported an investigation has been called into whether this strike adhered to rules of engagement.
Ignoring Fred's usual. The BBC news (telly) reported an investigation has been called into whether this strike adhered to rules of engagement.
Like the investigation into the rogue missile that killed a Afghani family earlier this month? They found that the missile wasn't faulty, it was aimed at the family, carry on as normal lads.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61F4NG20100217?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29
Holocaust: Premeditated Murder
Afghanistan: misidentification - unintentional
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QUhpHYyTBQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QUhpHYyTBQ&feature=player_embedded
I can imagine you cackling away singing I told you so, I told you so.
Actually that link looked interesting but I cant do Video off web.
No, it's the same old tactics, one dead American soldier and there is outcry at home but kill as many Afghani women and children as you like, it aint gonna lose us any votes.
The message to Afghanis is simple, stay at home and you get your house bombed just in case there is a resistance fighter in there. Try to make it to safety and get your vehicles bombed on the off chance you are resistance fighters on their way to attack us.
I think that is (among many) the most stupid thing you've said.
Hearts and minds is the strategy. This is the last thing needed.
I think that is (among many) the most stupid thing you've said.
Hearts and minds is the strategy. This is the last thing needed.
Then the sooner we realise you don't win hearts and minds with hellfire missiles the better.
carry on as normal lads.
"Carry on as usual lads" - what an insult coming from you. You've no idea of the mindset of 'these lads' - pity you have no personal experience of 'war' - one tends to think you would not be cackling then..
You know Fred, I read your posts and in my opinion you do have some good points.
Within the rules of engagement....made up as one goes along... dependent upon the circumstances.
Similar to heavy water released at a Nuke plant, or contaminated air....after 72 hours or so as it has dissipated..now within acceptable limits....
Yes collatoral damage....but why are we there?? Could it be the almighty Oil??
And guess what...we, as the average person will never know.
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it's too complicated....
northener
22-Feb-10, 18:09
Well, lets' disband the all armed forces and then we won't be able to rampage around the planet deliberately slaughtering thousands of civilians.
There's a simple answer to those who point and shout every time civvies get killed in a conflict that they personally disagree with.
Job done.
:roll:
So it's ok to kill someone providing that it is done withing the "Rules of engagement" What a completely stupid supposition.
Wars are fought on a simple basis - kill or be killed.
You play to your strengths, We bomb from the air and the other side use IED's (improvised explosive device).
"Carry on as usual lads" - what an insult coming from you. You've no idea of the mindset of 'these lads' - pity you have no personal experience of 'war' - one tends to think you would not be cackling then..
I have no experience of the mindset of rapists and mass murderers either but that doesn't exclude me from commenting on them. I wasn't a Nazi Storm Trooper in WWII but I don't think that excludes me from any conversations about them.
For over eight years I've been reading about innocent Afghani women and children we've blown to bits, yes the killing of civilians is the norm not the exception.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=119158§ionid=351020403
The Drunken Duck
22-Feb-10, 18:25
*Post Deleted*
I have no experience of the mindset of rapists and mass murderers either but that doesn't exclude me from commenting on them. I wasn't a Nazi Storm Trooper in WWII but I don't think that excludes me from any conversations about them.
For over eight years I've been reading about innocent Afghani women and children we've blown to bits, yes the killing of civilians is the norm not the exception.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=119158§ionid=351020403
Oh my God. What a silly response, comparing rapist and mass murderers to our boys in Afghanistan - It's interesting, not to say telling, to note you seem to actually believe the propaganda of Press TV???!
Come on Fred, calm down. Tell you what, nip down to Inverness to the Recruiting Office (three of my boys did), sign on and get your bum out there and sort 'em out, it's the only way. Best of luck..
northener
22-Feb-10, 18:48
So it's ok to kill someone providing that it is done withing the "Rules of engagement" What a completely stupid supposition.
Wars are fought on a simple basis - kill or be killed.
You play to your strengths, We bomb from the air and the other side use IED's (improvised explosive device).
Yes.
And you point is?
Oh my God. What a silly response, comparing rapist and mass murderers to our boys in Afghanistan - It's interesting, not to say telling, to note you seem to actually believe the propaganda of Press TV???!
Come on Fred, calm down. Tell you what, nip down to Inverness to the Recruiting Office (three of my boys did), sign on and get your bum out there and sort 'em out, it's the only way. Best of luck..
What did you expect me to believe, that we are killing all these innocent people in Afghanistan looking for the person behind 9/11?
The American invasion of Afghanistan was illegal and based on lies, these innocent women and children are dying as a result. We have no possible claim to self defence, Afghanistan was no threat to us, we are the aggressors.
You know Fred, I read your posts and in my opinion you do have some good points.
Within the rules of engagement....made up as one goes along... dependent upon the circumstances.
Similar to heavy water released at a Nuke plant, or contaminated air....after 72 hours or so as it has dissipated..now within acceptable limits....
Yes collatoral damage....but why are we there?? Could it be the almighty Oil??
And guess what...we, as the average person will never know.
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it's too complicated....
I think there are many reasons for the invasion of Afghanistan not least because American companies had a lot of oil and gas in the Caspian they wanted to get to India.
But I think one of the major reasons for the war in Afghanistan was to give NATO something to do.
Oh my God. What a silly response, comparing rapist and mass murderers to our boys in Afghanistan - It's interesting, not to say telling, to note you seem to actually believe the propaganda of Press TV???!
Come on Fred, calm down. Tell you what, nip down to Inverness to the Recruiting Office (three of my boys did), sign on and get your bum out there and sort 'em out, it's the only way. Best of luck..
And for those of us who know a wee bitty about these things, are we still maligned for not agreeing with your thoughts.
Perhaps we are trying to convert those who have a history of thousands of years of their 'status quo' to look at life as we do.....
Yes perhaps we are trying to bring them Christianity et cetera but have we got to kill them to succeed??
Am not saying the 'war' is wrong/ just opening it all up to thoughts.....and remember the Russians were there for 11 years and then the 'bad guys' were being funded by the US...Wonder who is funding the 'bad guys' now??
Food for thought....
I was not out to make or score points, I was merely making an observation on the futilities and lies of all wars
Yoda the flump
22-Feb-10, 19:35
As aAdolf Eichmann once said about holocaust.
"..10 is a lot, 100 more and anything over that is a statistic.." (or words to that effect)
Are you referring to 'One death is a tradgedy, one million deaths is a statistic'?
A quote by a mass murderer, certainly - but attributed to our ally Uncle Joe Stalin.
Are you referring to 'One death is a tradgedy, one million deaths is a statistic'?
A quote by a mass murderer, certainly - but attributed to our ally Uncle Joe Stalin.
Thank you for correction.
And for those of us who know a wee bitty about these things, are we still maligned for not agreeing with your thoughts.
Perhaps we are trying to convert those who have a history of thousands of years of their 'status quo' to look at life as we do.....
Yes perhaps we are trying to bring them Christianity et cetera but have we got to kill them to succeed??
Am not saying the 'war' is wrong/ just opening it all up to thoughts.....and remember the Russians were there for 11 years and then the 'bad guys' were being funded by the US...Wonder who is funding the 'bad guys' now??
Food for thought....
No of course not, you can think what you like, I'm not bothered.. bit off track, but don't really think we're trying to bring 'em the teachings of Christ.. but was given to understand that Afghan was a cradle for those folkies who wanted to use the country to train in and then come out and blow us lot to bits..
Yoda the flump
22-Feb-10, 20:58
An excellent post Drunken Duck, certainly helps to have insights like this
*Post Deleted*
Well join in the pointless argument then :Razz
Pray tell me what happened to that post?? Deleted?? By whom. It was quite informative
No of course not, you can think what you like, I'm not bothered.. bit off track, but don't really think we're trying to bring 'em the teachings of Christ.. but was given to understand that Afghan was a cradle for those folkies who wanted to use the country to train in and then come out and blow us lot to bits..
Actually it was really in relation to your comment to Fred....
I've always felt that to understand death you don't have to experience it....i.e. to be shot & killed doesn't mean you have to have it done to you.
The teachings of christ wasn't meant literally......
I know personally of people who went to Jordan to train the Afganis, and it was beyond that culture to understand our culture. It is like us....the UK and North America taking in Nigerian Boy Soldiers and then thinking that they will adhere to our way of life.....they just don't understand it...interesting article read recently on the teaching of the East..... they are attempting to soften their teachings in newer books, but there is little money to print new books so....they revert back to what their parents/ grandparents were told....because of the old books....am not being critical of anyones comments/ just that there are 'different ways to skin a cat'. Oh gawd now I will be up for cruelty!!!
And I don't condone the killing/ I am aware of someone who was killed.....not nice....
But we shouldn't get the George Bush mentality....'Lets Smoke em'......
No of course not, you can think what you like, I'm not bothered.. bit off track, but don't really think we're trying to bring 'em the teachings of Christ.. but was given to understand that Afghan was a cradle for those folkies who wanted to use the country to train in and then come out and blow us lot to bits..
Between 1963 and 1965, in Fort Benning, the terrorist Luis Posada Carriles received CIA training in explosives and sabotage.
In 1984, following the signing of the Panama Canal Treaty, the School of the Americas relocated from Fort Gulick (Panama) to Fort Benning. After criticism concerning human rights violations committed by a number of graduates in Latin America, the school was renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.
In 1988 Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier (the Oklahoma City bombing conspirators) met while in training at Ft Benning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Benning
... it appears to me that this is more akin to strategic bombing, if NATO are targeting the movement of insurgents.
"Strategic bombing" - otherwise known as indiscriminate slaughter.
Could someone please tell me why Afghanis living in their own country are called "insurgents"? :confused
Both valid comments....'Do as we say and not as we do'....
"Strategic bombing" - otherwise known as indiscriminate slaughter.
We're only trying to win their hearts and minds, we aint too bothered if their arms and legs get blown off so long as we get the hearts and minds.
We're only trying to win their hearts and minds, we aint too bothered if their arms and legs get blown off so long as we get the hearts and minds.
Yes, and we'll make them grow opium poppies again, such that our democracy (the envy of the world) can keep the hospitals and morgues full of addicts.
And we'll jolly well build that oil and gas pipeline that their government (beastly fellows) had rejected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Benning
tut tut, wiki again?
tut tut, wiki again?
What is it with you?
If I criticise American foreign policy I must hate Americans, if I criticise Israeli war crimes then I must be anti Semitic, if I post a link to press.tv press.tv is biassed and if i post a link to wikipedia wikipedia must be ridiculed.
I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that you might just be wrong?
I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that you might just be wrong?
Could you possibly be the one who is wrong????
Could you possibly be the one who is wrong????
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/mcveigh/conspirators.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/47/480.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/School-Americas-Thousands-Protest.htm
See, all the information in the wikipedia quote is easily verifiable.
The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.
The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.
I must be a convert of bekisman, as I think you are the one who has a bad attack of flatulence [lol]
I must be a convert of bekisman, as I think you are the one who has a bad attack of flatulence [lol]
You clearly think your comment funny, golach, but there is really no point in coming in to a serious debate like this unless you have a point worth making. Your silly insults do nothing except keep yourself amused.
If you think that Fred (or anyone else, but Fred certainly seems to be the flavour of the month amongst some that seem to want to go around in the dark) is wrong about something, then make your point with your reasoning.
Yes, and we'll make them grow opium poppies again, such that our democracy (the envy of the world) can keep the hospitals and morgues full of addicts.
And you talk about reason?? :eek:
Lets hear you evidence for that classic
If you think that Fred (or anyone else, but Fred certainly seems to be the flavour of the month amongst some that seem to want to go around in the dark) is wrong about something, then make your point with your reasoning.
They can't, they have no reasoning, all they have is their faith, their belief that we are good and they are evil, whoever tey happen to be at the time.
Let's take a look at their reasons for bringing death and destruction to Afghanistan with their illegal war, let's look at their reasons for killing women, children and babies.
"We're in Afghanistan to ensure that it cannot once again be a sanctuary for the kind of attacks that were carried out on 9/11,"
Well the fact is that none of the 9/11 hijackers were Afghani, the fact is they didn't learn how to fly a plane in Afghanistan but the facts contradict their beliefs so the facts must be wrong.
Meanwhile those who lost family and loved ones on 9/11 seek justice but they are denied it.
Documents gathered by lawyers for the families of Sept. 11 victims provide new evidence of extensive financial support for Al Qaeda and other extremist groups by members of the Saudi royal family, but the material may never find its way into court because of legal and diplomatic obstacles.
The fact is 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, the fact is the families of 9/11 victims claimed to have documented evidence that the hijackers were financed by Saudi Arabia but they have been blocked from taking those implicated to court.
They can't, they have no reasoning, all they have is their faith, their belief that we are good and they are evil, whoever tey happen to be at the time.
Let's take a look at their reasons for bringing death and destruction to Afghanistan with their illegal war, let's look at their reasons for killing women, children and babies.
Well the fact is that none of the 9/11 hijackers were Afghani, the fact is they didn't learn how to fly a plane in Afghanistan but the facts contradict their beliefs so the facts must be wrong.
Meanwhile those who lost family and loved ones on 9/11 seek justice but they are denied it.
The fact is 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, the fact is the families of 9/11 victims claimed to have documented evidence that the hijackers were financed by Saudi Arabia but they have been blocked from taking those implicated to court.
I don't recall anyone accusing the Afghans of terrorism. The Taliban were harbouring AlQeda and refused to stop when asked. The head of Alqueda is a Saudi, everyone knows that.
From a previous thread you don't believe any terrorists were involved in 9/11. Make your mind up.
, but there is really no point in coming in to a serious debate like this unless you have a point worth making. Your silly insults do nothing except keep yourself amused.
You call this a serious debate? We long term Orgers have had this many times in the past by fred, his continual girnan about the American government and its failings, is old news, and in my eyes are no longer serious. But you are entitled to your opinion, as I am, keep typing stavro, you make my day more amusing with every rant you post [lol]
The only reason people like berkisman try to ridicule it is because it makes it too easy for people to show they're talking out of their backsides.
"what is it with me"? - Well, been around a bit, seen a bit, done a bit.
Of course I have no objection whatsoever to anyone having an opinion - that really goes without saying.
But I do find it rather tiresome when you, without an iota of experience, relying on Wiki and Google to not only give your opinion generated by these sites - which I hasten to add, is perfectly normal, but to ram down our throats your opinions, which are elucidated to as 'facts'.
I (for example) am a First Aid Instructor but I would not in any way attempt to denigrate a qualified Doctor - I just don't have the experience and certainly not the gall to force my ideas down his throat and tell him he's talking out of his backside.
To be a world authority on Iran Iraq - indeed anything, you need a certain amount of experience coupled with empathy and a general balanced view to accept that others may differ in their outlook. Yes I may well be wrong, I can admit that.
There are injustices throughout the world, I've seen them, had personal experience of them - that's were I had my formative years. I have no idea what your personal opinions are on our British Forces, but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country - as with the Americans in post-war Germany and Japan.
I know you of old Fred, a previous poster who was actually serving in Iraq and thus 'on the ground' was given the retort by you of: "Ah you are in Iraq, that explains why you are in denial."
You are not going to persuade anyone on this forum to change their ideas, no matter how many times wiki is invoked, no matter how many times you post, no matter how forcefully you put your opinions.
This is just a very minor website, where folks exchange ideas, ramming it down peoples throats will make no difference - or don't you know this?
And don't think I missed your Freudian Slip of misspelling 'Berkisman' (shall we call this juvenile?)
This thread was about the accidental death of civilians - terrible, but '' happens.
You seem to be under the illusion that I give you abuse.. Please forgive me Fred, but one would presume by your previous utterances the following belies the point:
"Which just proves the point, the people who have been there are often the people who know least."
"You just don't listen do you?"
"Oh I enjoy intelligent debate, if I can find someone intelligent to debate with".
"Now have you got enough intelligence to open your eyes and see the world as it really is"
"You seem to be suffering from delusions of grandeur."
"Grow up."
"I don't debate with people who send me threatening and abusive PMs."
"If you can't behave in a civilised manner without becoming abusive I reserve the right not to debate with you."
"I don't take orders from you either."
"Strange how people who can't handle the truth revert to a mental age of twelve."
"I look forward to the trial of Saddam with great interest, I have a feeling if the truth is allowed to be let out people will realise things aren't just as black and white as they have been led to believe"
"Haven't you noticed yet that the news backs up what I say after I've said it"
"How many millions are their lies, greed and lust for power going to kill before the world wakes up."
"Why does nobody care? Why isn't everyone angry?"
"The we is the people of Britain, wasn't that obvious? I'll try and use shorter words for you."
Bekisman. You state "..but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country.."
just exactly who rebuilt Iraq, and how are the Iraqi's paying for this "rebuild" which incidentally, was mainly caused by Allied bombing.
My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho allied troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by allies, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore
My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho UN troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by UN, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore
The Allied troops are NATO troops, not UN troops, just a mute point.
Bekisman. You state "..but I hope that my sons who served in Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq have helped rebuild that country.."
just exactly who rebuilt Iraq, and how are the Iraqi's paying for this "rebuild" which incidentally, was mainly caused by Allied bombing.
My original post thread was dismay at 33 civillians killed by gung ho allied troops. Around the same number are killed in Iraq each day, not all by allies, but these deaths do not even merit a news item anymore
Might be easier if you put in 'rebuilding Iraq' into any search engine - there's a LOT of pages on this. My son is a Royal Engineer, building schools, hospitals and roads there, did/doing the same in Bosnia, Croatia - surely you are aware of this..
'...major benchmark for international assistance was the Madrid Conference on Reconstruction held in Spain October 23-24, 2003 and attended by representatives from over 25 nations. Funds assembled at this conference and from other sources have been administered by the UN and the World Bank. This assistance has primarily funded large-scale projects..' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_of_Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_of_Iraq) (Wiki so must be true) + In May 2003, following the invasion of Iraq in March of that year, the Central Bank of Iraq-Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) account was created at the U.S.Federal Reserve Bank of New york at the request of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) Administrator' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_Fund_for_Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_Fund_for_Iraq)
Germany after the war? look up 'Marshall Plan' - oh yes, forgot, we bombed that too
What a pathetic insult; 'Gung ho UN Troops' - by your statement you must really believe these forces don't give a toss, just go around dropping bombs for the fun of it. I can tell that you have a very closeted view of things on the ground and certainly a disrespect for the professionalism of the Armed Forces - I wonder why. No, don't tell me, I've guessed..
Your dismay belittles the insult you have given these UN troops, incidentally thought it was 27 dead not 33?
Of course when Saddam was putting his own folks through mincing machines and gassing Kurds, you were there, fighting for their corner?. Nah, of course not.
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 14:05
Pray tell me what happened to that post?? Deleted?? By whom. It was quite informative
It was my post and I deleted it mate, gave away too much personal information and in hindsight a little too much inside gen on the nature of Close Air Support. I quoted safety distances and operating procedures and the like, showed to a still serving ex colleague who is a current FAC and from what he advised me to delete from it it wasnt really informative anymore. Plus no one seemed to have noticed, everyone was to busy arguing !! Although for those that read it I hope it gave a good insight into the nature of the buisness. That said I have been dismayed at the naive attitudes of some people here towards Close Air Support, ROE and Air Warfare in general. There are terms like strategic bombing being thrown about obviously without any knowledge of what it actually is. Like I said in the now deleted post I did serve in light blue, I was also employed in a role that entailed planning for both British and American aircraft types so I have seen things from boths sides of the coin. And from my experience Gung ho is not an option and is stamped out early in the training process if it appears. We went to massive lengths to avoid bombing civvies. The paperwork is a nightmare for a start.
I learnt long ago there are those just not willing to listen to what actually goes on, and class all of my former colleagues in uniform as "gung ho" "murderers" and the like and there just isnt any talking to them. In fact I encountered one such type in Wick about twelve years ago after I came back from serving in Kuwait where I was planning raids into Iraq and who called me a baby killer, murderer etc etc and wanted to know why I did it. The real irony was that I was working in a Search and Rescue role (Kuwait was a detachment for me) at the time and not a week before had run a job entailing a Casevac from Thurso using a Lossie chopper but I didnt tell her that. I said nothing. No point. She was going to think what she wanted about me anyway no matter what I said. And these points of view are just as valid as any other at the end of the day. They are just wrong in my view. I only wish that these people were as vocal in the defence of the Kuwaiti's tortured by Iraqi's, our Aircrew tortured in 90/91 by Iraqi's, our guys killed and firebombed by Iraqi civilians who chose this way of showing their gratitude of being free of Saddam. But they wont. Too busy feeling clever and smart about something they actually know zip about. Bekisman I see your view, where your coming from and I agree with you but I just dont bother anymore.
Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??
My personal opinion is that Afghanistan is going to end in a stalemate. As the Taliban say "You have the watches but we have the time", they dont need to win they just need us to lose. The longer they string it out and the more casualties they inflict then public opinion will start to waver. It already is. And you cant fight an enemy who is a combantant one minute and a non combatant the next by simply dropping a rifle, not with the current ROE from what I am told. The Afghan people are not helping though as they are playing both sides, its THEIR country but they dont seem to want to firmly take a side. The Taliban terrorise them, we kick them out of the area but dont have the troops to hold the ground. The Taliban come back put a gun to the head of the village elder and tells him not to co-operate with us. Then we come back, kick the Taliban out damage the fields in the process (and thus their livelihood) and promise the earth in reconstruction which we then cant carry out because we dont hold the ground through lack of boots on the ground. Its a vicious circle. Add in Pakistan and their reluctance to take on the Taliban in their country given the nature of their political/relgious system and its a nightmare we should get out of or fund the Operation properly. You cant fight a War on a peacetime budget.
Sorry for being so serious but I dont do arguing on the Internet.
Bekisman, Despite your outrage, you failed to answer question of how is Iraqi "rebuilding" being funded.
As you use search engines for a lot of your answers, you may find the answer amongst them. Oil, i.e. Iraq is paying for the damage done by, and I will repeat the phrase, gung ho allied bombing, by the sale of its oil.
You can even attend a conference to ensure that you get a slice of the pie:
http://www.ifpjordan.com/exhibition_overview.php?id=104
So whilst the Royal Engineers make token efforts to justify why they are still there, the big (re)construction projects are carried out by Western construction companies.
The military and the monetary, always present in any recent US led war
You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.
Bekisman, Despite your outrage, you failed to answer question of how is Iraqi "rebuilding" being funded.
As you use search engines for a lot of your answers, you may find the answer amongst them. Oil, i.e. Iraq is paying for the damage done by, and I will repeat the phrase, gung ho allied bombing, by the sale of its oil.
You can even attend a conference to ensure that you get a slice of the pie:http://www.ifpjordan.com/exhibition_overview.php?id=104
So whilst the Royal Engineers make token efforts to justify why they are still there, the big (re)construction projects are carried out by Western construction companies.
The military and the monetary, always present in any recent US led war
You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.
'Outrage'? don't get so excited - I said 'pathetic' - sees I was right there.
It will take more than you to 'outrage' me my little friend..
OK we all know where Anfield stands; All coalition troops in Iraq are gung ho..
Obviously you are unaware that even 'pin-point' weapons are not 100% - sems rather strange considering the amount of time you must spend perusing the coverage of Iraq/Iran/East Cheam.
Even a moron would know that any country - such as one ravaged by Saddam - must help with rebuilding costs. That's quite normal you know (or maybe you did not)..
And anyway what's this "and the sale of their oil" - I thought the general concensus was the yanks were going to nick it all?- seems not
a little too much inside gen on the nature of Close Air Support. I quoted safety distances and operating procedures and the like, showed to a still serving ex colleague who is a current FAC and from what he advised me to delete from it it wasnt really informative anymore.
Although for those that read it I hope it gave a good insight into the nature of the buisness.
That said I have been dismayed at the naive attitudes of some people here towards Close Air Support, ROE and Air Warfare in general. There are terms like strategic bombing being thrown about obviously without any knowledge of what it actually is.
And from my experience Gung ho is not an option and is stamped out early in the training process if it appears. We went to massive lengths to avoid bombing civvies.
I learnt long ago there are those just not willing to listen to what actually goes on, and class all of my former colleagues in uniform as "gung ho" "murderers" and the like and there just isnt any talking to them. In fact I encountered one such type in Wick about twelve years ago after I came back from serving in Kuwait where I was planning raids into Iraq and who called me a baby killer, murderer etc etc and wanted to know why I did it.
The real irony was that I was working in a Search and Rescue role (Kuwait was a detachment for me) at the time and not a week before had run a job entailing a Casevac from Thurso using a Lossie chopper but I didnt tell her that. I said nothing. No point.
I only wish that these people were as vocal in the defence of the Kuwaiti's tortured by Iraqi's, our Aircrew tortured in 90/91 by Iraqi's, our guys killed and firebombed by Iraqi civilians who chose this way of showing their gratitude of being free of Saddam. But they wont. Too busy feeling clever and smart about something they actually know zip about.
Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??
Very Very well written and informative AND it's from the horses mouth!
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 15:01
You take umbrage at my use of the term "gung ho" yet, according to the military we have weapons which have pin point accuracy, why then is there so much carnage.
Is there "much carnage" ??, based on your previous claims I take your comments with a truckload of salt.
And its not just Bekisman who takes umbrage at your gung ho claim. With respect, You thought it was a UN operation which says a lot about your knowledge of the subject. You seem to have a political corner to fight so perhaps going out to Iraq to see for yourself might be an option. Wouldn't advise it though, Iraqi civilians have killed aid workers out there. You could end up like that or in a cheap video of a beheading being sold in a scummy bazaar. Ken Bigley did. Nice folks the Iraqi's, you should see what they did to Iranian POW's during the eight year war.
If you looked at the recent incident it was down to bad intelligence and nothing more. The munition (to tragic effect) worked fine. If you look at the amount of munitions dropped and the percentage that cause civilian casualties it is a very very small amount. There are weapons like JDAM which are GPS encoded and will fly to a set set of co-ords on release but they are only as good as the information received and the inputting of that info by a human. Many weapons are laser delivered and lots of factors can affect their emplyment such as air humidity, visibilty and wind speeds. They can also malfunction. Equipment failure on the ground, inaccurate passing of information, pure human error and weather as well as circumstances round the target all factor into it. There is no such thing as a smart bomb, its a myth that came into being after the freeing of Kuwait. They are all targetted by fallible humans. There is one simple fact in warfare. Accidents will, and do, happen.
Good recently released clip here of an laser guided LGB drop, released from an RAF Harrier, being steered away from possible civilian casualties after the ground circumstances changed after bomb release. The vehicle was confirmed Taliban but then entered an area with civilians so the Pilot directed it to empty ground. Bear in mind he was also flying the aircraft, keeping a lookout for other jets etc etc at the same time. Hardly gung ho behaviour in letting the enemy escape. Not to worry though we got him later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUikQt5NdWg
Why do people argue over minute points?
Did you say outrage or did you say pathetic, does it matter
27 dead or 33 dead
the WHOLE point of thread was to state my sadness that 27/33 people died as a result of an avoidable bombing mission.
Why do people argue over minute points?
Did you say outrage or did you say pathetic, does it matter
27 dead or 33 dead
the WHOLE point of thread was to state my sadness that 27/33 people died as a result of an avoidable bombing mission.
Yes it's very sad these people were killed - this was not by Gung ho pilots - this was an accident, unfortunately by incomplete intelligence.
These things happen in a war zone, as most of us are willing to accept, some on the other hand do not.
Me? it's been interesting, but going to leave the thread and let 'em burble on amongst themselves.. It was maybe a Trolling exercise anyway...
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 17:12
Have to agree Bekisman.
(Sorry as an ex crab I just cant let an RE get the last word .. :lol:)
Yes it's very sad these people were killed - this was not by Gung ho pilots - this was an accident, unfortunately by incomplete intelligence.
These things happen in a war zone, as most of us are willing to accept, some on the other hand do not.
So why do we keep starting illegal wars of aggression knowing we will be killing thousands, hundreds of thousands, innocent people?
Iraq didn't invade us, we invaded Iraq. Afghanistan didn't invade us, we invaded Afghanistan. Neither were any threat to us.
Saying "these things happen" doesn't make it not our fault when our starting the wars is what made it happen.
We have shown utter contempt for international law, we have used cluster bombs we have used depleted uranium with total disregard for the lives of civilians. We have used kidnapping, torture and terrorism.
Building a few schools isn't going to change that, Iraq already had the best education system in the Middle East, provided free, before we invaded. They already had the best health care before we invaded.
You may be willing to accept but the loved ones of over two million Iraqis dead because of us are not willing to accept, the loved ones of an unknown number of Afghanis are not willing to accept. All those maimed because of us are not willing to accept, all those babies born deformed because we used depleted uranium are not willing to accept and neither are their parents.
And I'm not willing to accept either.
So why do we keep starting illegal wars of aggression knowing we will be killing thousands, hundreds of thousands, innocent people?
Iraq didn't invade us, we invaded Iraq. Afghanistan didn't invade us, we invaded Afghanistan. Neither were any threat to us.
Saying "these things happen" doesn't make it not our fault when our starting the wars is what made it happen.
We have shown utter contempt for international law, we have used cluster bombs we have used depleted uranium with total disregard for the lives of civilians. We have used kidnapping, torture and terrorism.
Building a few schools isn't going to change that, Iraq already had the best education system in the Middle East, provided free, before we invaded. They already had the best health care before we invaded.
You may be willing to accept but the loved ones of over two million Iraqis dead because of us are not willing to accept, the loved ones of an unknown number of Afghanis are not willing to accept. All those maimed because of us are not willing to accept, all those babies born deformed because we used depleted uranium are not willing to accept and neither are their parents.
And I'm not willing to accept either.
Oh Fred - go away. I have
Fred,
totally agree with everything you say but when the quality of debate degenerates into posts such as:
"(Sorry as an ex crab I just cant let an RE get the last word .. :lol:) http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=664736)"
I know that it is pointless carrrying on thread.
I personally do not find anything remotely funny about this whole sad episode
Bekisman
Who threw your toys back into pram?
"..Me? it's been interesting, but going to leave the thread and let 'em burble on amongst themselves.. It was maybe a Trolling exercise anyway... http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/quote.gif" (http://forum.caithness.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=664690)
Fred,
totally agree with everything you say but when the quality of debate degenerates into posts such as:
"(Sorry as an ex crab I just cant let an RE get the last word .. :lol:) http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=664736)"
I know that it is pointless carrrying on thread.
I personally do not find anything remotely funny about this whole sad episode
Well close it dear boy!...fades away....
Even a moron would know that any country - such as one ravaged by Saddam - must help with rebuilding costs. That's quite normal you know (or maybe you did not)..
"Ravaged by Saddam"?! What are you talking about? Saddam Hussein united the place; Sunnis, Shi'ites, Kurds, Jews and the rest, from what was very much a country of tribes. He was rebuilding libraries, schools and hospitals; restoring historical artifacts (promptly looted by the Americans and shipped to the cesspit called New York). He controlled the country ravaged by obscene sanctions imposed by the West - like preventing medical supplies and food. He had no airforce, the West saw to that. And what did the American regime do? They went on TV to state how the Pretorian Guard was situated in Bhagdad and how those "brave" American boys, facing no enemy aircraft and no enemy fire, were going to drop cluster bombs and "daisy cutters" (obscene name that might appeal to an ex-military man) and "bunker busters" on them (and anything else that was living down there) from 20,000 feet up. Yes, very brave. That is not a "war," that is genocide. That is slaughter. That is a "holocaust."
And all you can say is that Saddam Hussein dropped people down mincing machines and gassed Kurds. Listening to too much Tony Blair and George Bush methinks. Only morons would believe those two genocidal maniacs.
And anyway what's this "and the sale of their oil" - I thought the general concensus was the yanks were going to nick it all?- seems not
Wake up bekisman. Support our troops - bring them home.
Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??
Now I understand where your username comes from. Can't face being confronted by facts and reality, whether in a drunken state or not, so you resort to rubbishing well-researched and informative posts/posters. Sad. You seem to have been exposed to too much gung-ho military nonsense.
So why do we keep starting illegal wars of aggression knowing we will be killing thousands, hundreds of thousands, innocent people?
Iraq didn't invade us, we invaded Iraq. Afghanistan didn't invade us, we invaded Afghanistan. Neither were any threat to us.
Saying "these things happen" doesn't make it not our fault when our starting the wars is what made it happen.
We have shown utter contempt for international law, we have used cluster bombs we have used depleted uranium with total disregard for the lives of civilians. We have used kidnapping, torture and terrorism.
Building a few schools isn't going to change that, Iraq already had the best education system in the Middle East, provided free, before we invaded. They already had the best health care before we invaded.
You may be willing to accept but the loved ones of over two million Iraqis dead because of us are not willing to accept, the loved ones of an unknown number of Afghanis are not willing to accept. All those maimed because of us are not willing to accept, all those babies born deformed because we used depleted uranium are not willing to accept and neither are their parents.
And I'm not willing to accept either.
Very, very well said. And I am not going to accept either.
There is absolutely nothing "brave" or "honourable" about dropping bombs and depleted uranium on our fellow human beings. Absolutely nothing.
[quote=Stavro;664788
and "daisy cutters" (obscene name that might appeal to an ex-military man)
Only morons would believe those two genocidal maniacs.
Wake up bekisman. Support our troops - bring them home.[/quote]
My oh my we are excited aren't we?
My oh my we are excited aren't we?
O, bekisman, are you still here?
O, bekisman, are you still here?
o' yes, but bit tied up ref another thread.. but not interested in your trolling thread.. bit repetitive..
Fred is quite funny though. Is he for real ??
My personal opinion is that Afghanistan is going to end in a stalemate.
Sorry for being so serious but I dont do arguing on the Internet.[/quote]
By the Duck on the Lesbian Cloud....
Am trying to figure out why you, a 'new member', would make the above comment about Fred.....he has some decent points!
And I likely agree with the Stalemate comment but if you don't argue on the internet, pls don't slag someone you don't know...
I am and was never a Crab, nor an RE...whatever that means, but I am sure we all have our experiences....I did know people on the ground' in the middle East, and it is not as simple as Bombing the (.....) out of people, who for thousands of years have done the only thing that brought them any money, and that was cultivating a Narcotic. And did we.....the Western World not Finance Sadam for the 7/8 years War against Iran, and then one day decide to take him out/ smoke him/ mission accomplished...et cetera, and I am sure that those people who served on the 'ground' did what was bid of them and I am sure very bravely, but there are more issues than killing.
Take a step back////from a management position is this the right way to go.....food for thought my military men!
Fred & Stavro.
There is none so blind as those who refuse to see. You are wasting your time trying to change the nature of thinking that belong to war supporters.
It does not matter to these people how many are killed, either enemy or their own, after all Americans voted for Bush twice.
A poll published today showed that 70% of british people think that this "war" in unwinnable.
However some people believe it is their god given right to send their citizens and children to do their bidding, and of course no government ministers or Windsor family children are on front line, or anywhere near it
Yes, and the Dutch and Canadians are leaving the combat situation....
Fred & Stavro.
There is none so blind as those who refuse to see. You are wasting your time trying to change the nature of thinking that belong to war supporters.
It does not matter to these people how many are killed, either enemy or their own, after all Americans voted for Bush twice.
A poll published today showed that 70% of british people think that this "war" in unwinnable.
However some people believe it is their god given right to send their citizens and children to do their bidding, and of course no government ministers or Windsor family children are on front line, or anywhere near it
Anfield, you are correct in quoting the words of Christ regarding the willingly blind, but I do no accept that anyone is wasting their time.
If it were just the gung-ho, ex-military-man brigade that we were "debating" with, then yes, but there are a lot of people who will view these posts without contributing and if only one of them starts to reason for themselves and question this heinous slaughter of women, children, babies, men, animals, then it is very worthwhile.
The gung-ho, ex-military-man brigade soon run out of arguments and then do what they are good at - hiding behind ridicule. However, if Johnny Foreigner was playing on a level playing field, then even the tally-ho's might soon wake up sharply.
Yes, and the Dutch and Canadians are leaving the combat situation....
Excellent news.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7035719.ece
Fred, Stavro you have another ally to disseminate your tripe enjoy
:roll:
Pray tell me of your experiences in this World Theatre....
We all have our opinions and they should be respected...
Excellent news.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7035719.ece
Inevitably they will soon be replaced by more canon fodder.
Fred, Stavro you have another ally to disseminate your tripe enjoy
:roll:
"Tripe"?
Here is something that cannot be called "tripe" by any human being, ducati -
WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURE - DO NOT VIEW IF EASILY UPSET
(http://www.globalresearch.ca/coverStoryPictures/15665.jpg)
Stavro,
If I was you I would withdraw picture.
You are better off on the Org than banned from it.
"Tripe"?
Here is something that cannot be called "tripe" by any human being, ducati -
WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURE - DO NOT VIEW IF EASILY UPSET
You are sick! have you no decency? I'm asking you to delete it
Yoda the flump
23-Feb-10, 21:42
"Tripe"?
Here is something that cannot be called "tripe" by any human being, ducati -
WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURE - DO NOT VIEW IF EASILY UPSET
Far from appropriate on this forum, if you get suspended for it you well deserve it.
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 22:05
As has been pointed out I may be a new member here but I tried to put forward a point of view from someone who was actively employed in the air delivery of weapons.I thought, naively that perhaps a personal perspective on similair events the OP started the thread about might help. Waste of time that in hindsight. Fred hasnt been near a conflict that didnt apparently involve a keyboard. His "views" on this thread are, in my opinion, the worst type of internet paranoia and therefore I find him amusing, he comes across as a rather angry caricature to me. And someone who is so blinded by his own misinformed prejudice that the is unable to even consider anyone elses point of view even if it might broaden his horizons. There were plainly wrong claims in his last posts but I didnt bother responding. He wouldnt listen anyway. I am not slagging Fred as you say, I just find him funny for the reasons I have stated above.
As for the Crab comment to Bekisman. That was a light hearted dig at Bekisman and one that he would understand. Being ex Royal Air Force we are known as Crabs (due to being the only service that has no limit to the amount of sideways movements in drill movements) and he had mentioned to me in a PM about the RAF being basically founded by the Royal Engineers. I was joking that I couldnt alow him the last word on that basis. It was friendly jibe between us, nothing more.
Anfield .. Sorry but you are seriously misinformed about what goes on or and the people involved. You showed that by calling Ops in Afghan a UN Operation when its a NATO one. Says it all really. Us "war supporters" as you call it do care, deeply. My username is from a bar in Al Udeid named after the crew badge of former colleagues who went down over Afghan in September 2006, I havent forgotten CXX/3 and never will. Just like I have never forgotten the three civilian casaulties in Ops I was involved in, bothered me then and bothers me still even though their presence was out of our control. During my time in everyone I knew did all in their power to minimise not just casualties but damage to property. Having you, someone who knows zero about it claiming otherwise almost made me angry. Almost.
Stavro .. Are you George Galloway ??, you seem to love Saddam a lot. And any Armed Force NEVER fights fair. It isnt Fencing.
You lot need to realise something. The Armed Forces of this country do not just decide to go swanning off on Ops on their own, that is decided on a political level. And politicians are voted in by the population. If you want to know who is responsible for what you detest so much have a look in the mirror. You had the power to vote against it, maybe you did I dont know. Maybe you even voted for the current Government and THAT would be ironic. I have never voted Labour in my life so I was there in Kuwait in 98 at the behest of those who did. It might surprise you to know that I dont want our guys in Afghanistan, I didnt want them in Iraq. Both places are best forgotten in my view. But in yet another correction Anfield there has been an MP out there as reservist and the Queens grandson also did time out there as a FAC. Do you EVER get anything right ??
No wonder Bekisman bugged out. Thats my last words on it too. I am all for a debate but you cant talk to people who have made their mind up based on what they are fed by the media.
See what I mean.
Link deleted.
You are sick! have you no decency? I'm asking you to delete it
I did not post the picture, only a link to a picture, and rest assured that I have found many of that ilk.
Ask the politicians whether they have any decency. As the military. And ask yourself why this sort of thing (which is going on all the time, whether you like to be reminded of the graphic nature of it or not) is taking place thousands of miles away against human beings who have done nothing to you or I.
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 22:18
Just say it DD. But don't forget we signed our attestation papers to ensure Great Britain remained. That includes carrying along all the baggage, including those who actively dislike m'lord War and all his dodgy siblings.
What luck for the peace-lover, that there remain angry violent men who will perform acts of great destruction on his behalf, to ensure he can continue to protest.
And what luck for the angry man that there remain peace lovers who ensure he has a home to return to when his fire is damped.
Or something like that.
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 22:28
Just say it DD. But don't forget we signed our attestation papers to ensure Great Britain remained. That includes carrying along all the baggage, including those who actively dislike m'lord War and all his dodgy siblings.
What luck for the peace-lover, that there remain angry violent men who will perform acts of great destruction on his behalf, to ensure he can continue to protest.
And what luck for the angry man that there remain peace lovers who ensure he has a home to return to when his fire is damped.
Or something like that.
Nicely put. Very, Very nicely put.
I am happy to carry my baggage. No one forced me after all. And I gained a lot more than I lost .. :cool:
The Drunken Duck
23-Feb-10, 22:31
I did not post the picture, only a link to a picture, and rest assured that I have found many of that ilk.
Ask the politicians whether they have any decency. As the military. And ask yourself why this sort of thing (which is going on all the time, whether you like to be reminded of the graphic nature of it or not) is taking place thousands of miles away against human beings who have done nothing to you or I.
Talking about decency in others after posting that pic is a bit hollow really. You have found many more you say ??, did they fall into your lap or did you look for them ??
Anyone who had seen anything like that up close would have the respect for that child that you sold out to make a point on an internet forum.
I remember when enemy propagandists were hanged
Talking about decency in others after posting that pic is a bit hollow really. You have found many more you say ??, did they fall into your lap or did you look for them ??
Anyone who had seen anything like that up close would have the respect for that child that you sold out to make a point on an internet forum.
Ah another one who flounces and bounces.
You blame the voters for voting for the war but object to them seeing what they are voting for. Seems you prefer people to get their information from the media.
Parade every dead Afghani through Wootton Basset and maybe our politicians would think twice before starting wars.
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 22:48
Fred, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
Fred, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
Look if you want to talk about right then talk about us being right first.
We can't take the moral high ground when we are the worst offenders.
We can't complain about terrorists training in Afghanistan while America is funding terrorists and training them in Afghanistan.
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=119318§ionid=351020101
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:01
Look if you want to talk about right then talk about us being right first. We can't take the moral high ground when we are the worst offenders. We can't complain about terrorists training in Afghanistan while America is funding terrorists and training them in Afghanistan.
I asked a simple question. Please answer.
You lot need to realise something. The Armed Forces of this country do not just decide to go swanning off on Ops on their own, that is decided on a political level. And politicians are voted in by the population.
No wonder Bekisman bugged out. Thats my last words on it too. I am all for a debate but you cant talk to people who have made their mind up based on what they are fed by the media.
DrunkenDuck, you may be new on here, but you should have read enough already to see that it is primarily the politicians and the media that I and others are criticizing. It is the fact that we are not allowing ourselves to be fed by the mainstream media. That is the whole point.
There is a very, very sordid enterprise going on and the Afghanis are paying a very, very heavy price.
bekisman - if you were so offended by the photo, then why did you leave the link in the quote? At least Yoda the Flump removed it. Is it the fact that you do not want people in general to see for themselves exactly what we are trying to draw attention to? And you have the absolute nerve to call others "sick"!
Yes, and the Dutch and Canadians are leaving the combat situation....
Wonder if they will leave the Nato Alliance also?
Anyone who had seen anything like that up close would have the respect for that child that you sold out to make a point on an internet forum.
If it were left to me, that child would never have ended up in that state. You are a hypocrite.
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:08
I am happy to carry my baggage. No one forced me after all. And I gained a lot more than I lost .. :cool:
They just don't get it, do they... !
I remember when enemy propagandists were hanged
"Enemy" to whom? Women and children who have done "us" no harm?
I asked a simple question. Please answer.
You did not ask a simple question but I answered anyway.
They do not want to make bombs because we are unbelievers, they want to make bombs because we invade their countries and kill them.
If a Muslim country invaded Britain would you not do the same? I know I would, I'd fight them any means I could.
Iraq didn't invade us, we invaded Iraq, Afghanistan didn't invade us we invaded Afghanistan. They are the injured parties, we are the criminals.
Now I repeat, when we've put our own house in order we can start criticising others.
Wonder if they will leave the Nato Alliance also?
We should all leave the NATO alliance.
It was started after WWII when there was a real threat from the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union fell in 1989 and NATO became redundant. We now have to invent threats to give them a reason to exist.
Get rid of them.
Drunken Duck,
I apologise for my mistake (which was corrected) in stating that UN forces were there rather than NATO - dont think the locals know who is bombing them either.
re: " But in yet another correction Anfield there has been an MP out there as reservist and the Queens grandson also did time out there as a FAC."
Yes, above pair have been to area, but so to have Blair, Bush, Brown and many many more, but how far away from the killing zones were they?
As for "..actively employed in the air delivery of weapons.." which most people know as bombing, is this another attempt at the sanitisation of a dirty & illegal war.
I abhor violence in any form, and this includes the genocide of their own people by islamic terrorists.
We will never end the conflict in the middle east by occupation, but what we can do is to try and reduce the suffering to innocent civillians by bringing home all foreign troops either UN/NATO or whoever
I remember when enemy propagandists were hanged
Do you remember when war criminals were hanged?
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:37
They do not want to make bombs because we are unbelievers, they want to make bombs because we invade their countries and kill them. If a Muslim country invaded Britain would you not do the same? I know I would, I'd fight them any means I could. Iraq didn't invade us, we invaded Iraq, Afghanistan didn't invade us we invaded Afghanistan. They are the injured parties, we are the criminals. Now I repeat, when we've put our own house in order we can start criticising others.
Sigh... When did we invade Germany? (Recently I mean). I asked about German Jihadists, remember?
Yes or No, Fred.
.
Afghanistan didn't invade us we invaded Afghanistan. They are the injured parties, we are the criminals.
I think the Afghan Government asked Nato to come to their aid, they were invited.
I think the Afghan Government asked Nato to come to their aid, they were invited.
The Taliban were the Afghan government at the time, they didn't invite us.
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:41
I think the Afghan Government asked Nato to come to their aid, they were invited.
I don't want to post the link, but there's a fairly graphic picture of what became of the last prime minister the Afghans had before the taleban took over. A lot worse than the previous link that caused so much disturbance...
But hey, that's what people do to each other when they're annoyed.
Sigh... When did we invade Germany? (Recently I mean). I asked about German Jihadists, remember?
Yes or No, Fred.
Germany is part of the "us", they are part of the NATO forces in Afghanistan, they were the ones who called the air strike killing over a hundred Afghani civilians last September.
You just don't get it do you?
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:43
The Taliban were the Afghan government at the time, they didn't invite us.
If you're not going to answer my query Fred, could you just remind us about the acheivements of the taleban government when they were in power in Afghanistan?
Tubthumper
23-Feb-10, 23:46
Germany is part of the "us", they are part of the NATO forces in Afghanistan, they were the ones who called the air strike killing over a hundred Afghani civilians last September. You just don't get it do you?
Re Germany - are their citizens right to train in making IEDs to blow people up in a foreign country? I suppose this includes their own troops who, after all, are some German mother's sons.
You still haven't answered my question.
Re Germany - are their citizens right to train in making IEDs to blow people up in a foreign country? I suppose this includes their own troops who, after all, are some German mother's sons.
You still haven't answered my question.
I have answered your question several times.
It's up to them to decide what is right for them to do.
It is up to us to decide what is right for us to do, they aren't committing any crimes in my name, it's the ones who are I'll criticise.
If you're not going to answer my query Fred, could you just remind us about the acheivements of the taleban government when they were in power in Afghanistan?
That is a matter for the people of Afghanistan.
It's what our government does that concerns me.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:01
I have answered your question several times. It's up to them to decide what is right for them to do. It is up to us to decide what is right for us to do, they aren't committing any crimes in my name, it's the ones who are I'll criticise.
No you haven't answered my question. You can't bring yourself to state 'right' or 'wrong' about a foreign jihadist, although you have no hesitation in doing so for a Brit squaddie.
If you are correct in your assertion that it is up to them and to us to decide what is right in what 'we' or 'they' do, then I think that any discussion of who is and isn't committing crimes is a bit pointless. But it doesn't work like that for you people does it?
Our country is the sum of its history (all of it, not just the nice bits), the people that live in it now, and all the things it's currently aspiring to.
It will also look after me and you reasonably well, regardless of our opinion.
In the greater scheme of things, like the Yanks say, My country, right or wrong'.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:10
Fred, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
No you haven't answered my question. You can't bring yourself to state 'right' or 'wrong' about a foreign jihadist, although you have no hesitation in doing so for a Brit squaddie.
If you are correct in your assertion that it is up to them and to us to decide what is right in what 'we' or 'they' do, then I think that any discussion of who is and isn't committing crimes is a bit pointless. But it doesn't work like that for you people does it?
Our country is the sum of its history (all of it, not just the nice bits), the people that live in it now, and all the things it's currently aspiring to.
It will also look after me and you reasonably well, regardless of our opinion.
In the greater scheme of things, like the Yanks say, My country, right or wrong'.
I'd forget it Tubs. These people are Taliban sympathisers spreading propaganda. That’s the problem with the Internet, you don't know who you are talking to. Probably in a cave in Pakistan.
No you haven't answered my question. You can't bring yourself to state 'right' or 'wrong' about a foreign jihadist, although you have no hesitation in doing so for a Brit squaddie.
If you are correct in your assertion that it is up to them and to us to decide what is right in what 'we' or 'they' do, then I think that any discussion of who is and isn't committing crimes is a bit pointless. But it doesn't work like that for you people does it?
Our country is the sum of its history (all of it, not just the nice bits), the people that live in it now, and all the things it's currently aspiring to.
It will also look after me and you reasonably well, regardless of our opinion.
In the greater scheme of things, like the Yanks say, My country, right or wrong'.
Afghanistan is the country of the Afghanis, Iraq is the country of the Iraqis.
You say we have the right to be wrong but they don't? You say it's good for us to be patriotic but bad for them?
They didn't invade us, we invaded them, illegally, whatever happens as a result of that is down to us not them.
No you haven't answered my question. You can't bring yourself to state 'right' or 'wrong' about a foreign jihadist, although you have no hesitation in doing so for a Brit squaddie.
If you are correct in your assertion that it is up to them and to us to decide what is right in what 'we' or 'they' do, then I think that any discussion of who is and isn't committing crimes is a bit pointless. But it doesn't work like that for you people does it?
Our country is the sum of its history (all of it, not just the nice bits), the people that live in it now, and all the things it's currently aspiring to.
It will also look after me and you reasonably well, regardless of our opinion.
In the greater scheme of things, like the Yanks say, My country, right or wrong'.
Here Here Tubs
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:20
I'd forget it Tubs. These people are Taliban sympathisers spreading propaganda. That’s the problem with the Internet, you don't know who you are talking to. Probably in a cave in Pakistan.
No they're not, they are valued members of our community, who have the right to have opinions, to express them and to be heard.
This isn't taliban-governed Afghanistan you know!!
No they're not, they are valued members of our community, who have the right to have opinions, to express them and to be heard.
This isn't taliban-governed Afghanistan you know!!
I agree with your sentiment, but I wouldn't expect to meet them at the curry night on Thursday ;)
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:23
You say we have the right to be wrong but they don't? You say it's good for us to be patriotic but bad for them?
They didn't invade us, we invaded them, illegally, whatever happens as a result of that is down to us not them.
What? Did I say anywhere that it's bad for them to be patriotic? No.
We? WE?? Are you claiming to be part of the same collective as me? You, an apologist for Jihadists, who is scornful of the efforts of a poor wee 18 year old Scottish Sojer?
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:25
Fred, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
So we do not lose sight of the official reason that the West illegally invaded Afghanistan, under the weight of propaganda about "the" Taliban, consider this from The Washington Times -
"A thousand architects and engineers want to know, and are calling on Congress to order a new investigation into the destruction of the Twin Towers and Building 7 at the World Trade Center.
" 'In order to bring down this kind of mass in such a short period of time, the material must have been artificially, exploded outwards,' says Richard Gage, a San Francisco architect and founder of the nonprofit Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth.
"He is particularly disturbed by Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper, which was not hit by an aircraft, yet came down in 'pure free-fall acceleration.' He also says that more than 100 first-responders reported explosions and flashes as the towers were falling and cited evidence of 'multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft. at 60 mph' and the 'mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking.' "
I suppose these questions must make Mr Gage some sort of friend of "the enemy"?
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:47
So we do not lose sight of the official reason that the West illegally invaded Afghanistan, under the weight of propaganda about "the" Taliban, consider this from The Washington Times -
I suppose these questions must make Mr Gage some sort of friend of "the enemy"?
Or an enemy of their friends? Or just another lonely bloke wishing to make an impact??
I thought the 'enemy' was Al Quaeda, and that the taliban government were merely hosting/ supporting/ actively encouraging?
Keep bringing this material forward Stavros, it keeps you busy and gives us an insight.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:50
Seeing as Fred has gone (to bed??) Stavros can you tell us, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
Keep bringing this material forward Stavros, it keeps you busy and gives us an insight.
Naw Tubthumper Stavro, just gives me dyspepsia and a headache [lol]
Seeing as Fred has gone (to bed??) Stavros can you tell us, is it right for 'Jihadists' from Germany to go to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers?
No, Tub, it certainly is not alright (I suppose you mean) for anyone to go from Germany to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs.
Funny that they would do that really, I mean Germany being so much more technically advanced than Afghanistan ...
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 00:59
Funny that they would do that really, I mean Germany being so much more technically advanced than Afghanistan ...
Was that a joke?:eek:
I meant 'is it right' (i.e. is it not wrong) That's all I asked, is it right or not. Not 'it's alright'.
Was that a joke?:eek:
I meant 'is it right' (i.e. is it not wrong) That's all I asked, is it right or not. Not 'it's alright'.
Well, whatever. I have answered your question I believe.
As for being a joke, no. But why would anyone need to travel to Afghanistan to learn how to make a bomb?
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 01:08
I thought the question was quite simple 'Is it right for 'Jihadists' to travel from Germany to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers'.
What is wrong with you people - 'yes' or 'no'?
I thought the question was quite simple 'Is it right for 'Jihadists' to travel from Germany to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs to kill unbelievers'.
What is wrong with you people - 'yes' or 'no'?
Strange. Fred answered your question and I answered your question, but you deny that we did. Is it that we did not say, "yes"?
No, Tub, it certainly is not alright (I suppose you mean) for anyone to go from Germany to Afghanistan to learn how to make bombs.
Funny that they would do that really, I mean Germany being so much more technically advanced than Afghanistan ...
Note the first word there, Tub. I know it's only two letters long and therefore easy to miss perhaps. Let me give you a clue, the first letter is an "N."
O, what the heck, I'll give you another clue, the second letter is an "O."
Any chance you could answer my question now? To remind you: "Why would anyone need to travel to Afghanistan to learn how to make a bomb?"
Aaldtimer
24-Feb-10, 05:14
First of all can I bid you welcome to the debate drunken Duck. You may notice I don't contribute to this thread as I don't believe in pissing against the wind.
But..."Being ex Royal Air Force we are known as Crabs (due to being the only service that has no limit to the amount of sideways movements in drill movements)"...
I think you are a wee bit misinformed on this matter.
As one who wore the blue/grey for nine years and had friends in the Senior Service, I learned that the expression for us, used by the RN, was "Crabfats", due to the similarity of the colour of the ointment used by their medics to treat their infestations of said critter!
We were also referred to as "Brylcreem Boys" by the Army...but that's another story!;)
Taliban, Taliban, Watch the skys - those UAVs are pretty sneeky
Boozeburglar
24-Feb-10, 12:08
Only the worst kind of vile and ignorant idiot would post a picture of a war victim, thinking they were educating or informing anyone.
We could all post such pictures, of Kurds, of servicemen and women.
The majority are not so weak in their mind to resort to such sensationalism.
Guess what, war and terrorism is always one sided.
There is always one side better at it than the other, there are always more casualties on one side.
Perhaps you removed the link once prompted, but it says everything about you that you put it there in the first place.
Truly pathetic, and beyond the pale.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 13:37
Strange. Fred answered your question and I answered your question, but you deny that we did. Is it that we did not say, "yes"?
Note the first word there, Tub. I know it's only two letters long and therefore easy to miss perhaps. Let me give you a clue, the first letter is an "N."O, what the heck, I'll give you another clue, the second letter is an "O." Any chance you could answer my question now? To remind you: "Why would anyone need to travel to Afghanistan to learn how to make a bomb?"
I can't see anything that says 'no' in Fred's posts.
But I made an error. I missed the No in your post. That must me cos i'm just a stupid ex 'cannon -fodder'. Pardon me. You have my permission to feel all warm and squirty.
Why would anyone need to travel to Afghanistan? I suppose because it makes them feel like they're part of the great effort, which they wouldn't get staying at home.
If you mean why would they not just stay in Germany and learn - perhaps they don't feel they'd get the right kind of attention, or that it's more satisfying randomly blowing up soldiers, civilians and goats in a place where one can really be someone. After all, in Afghanistan, there's a good chance somebody will treat you as a hero. In Germany, everyone would just hate you.
Maybe getting caught in the process of collecting fertiliser and ending up in the clink for 20 years maybe isn't as appealing? I really don't know.You'd have to ask the guys in the background pushing the buttons how they motivated their believers.
need[/I] to travel to Afghanistan? I suppose because it makes them feel like they're part of the great effort, which they wouldn't get staying at home.
If you mean why would they not just stay in Germany and learn - perhaps they don't feel they'd get the right kind of attention, or that it's more satisfying randomly blowing up soldiers, civilians and goats in a place where one can really be someone. After all, in Afghanistan, there's a good chance somebody will treat you as a hero. In Germany, everyone would just hate you.
Maybe getting caught in the process of collecting fertiliser and ending up in the clink for 20 years maybe isn't as appealing? I really don't know.You'd have to ask the guys in the background pushing the buttons how they motivated their believers.
Do you really believe that the bombs in, say, market places in Iraq and Afghanistan, or on the London Underground, etc., were fertiliser bombs?
If you are ex-military, then surely you recognise the effects of military grade explosives?
And, if someone were going to Afghanistan to learn how to make a fertiliser bomb, then does seem like a bit of a stupid waste of time.
How many alleged training camps would there be in Afghanistan? 10? 20? 100?
And the British and Americans have been doing the bidding of "Israel" there for how long now?
And how many civilians have died or been maimed there in that time? Forget it, you will not be expected to answer that question, since the figures are deliberately withheld by the British and American regimes.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 18:05
Do you really believe that the bombs in, say, market places in Iraq and Afghanistan, or on the London Underground, etc., were fertiliser bombs?
I neither know nor care what the nature of the explosives commonly used in Afghanistan is, however I can remember some chaps being caught in the UK recently with a couple of tonne bags of fertiliser in a lock up. Chaps getting nabbed with juice bottles to blow up planes. The Canary Wharf bomb? Fertiliser if I remember rightly.
And from the perspective of someone having their leg blown off, I suspect it doen't matter much if it's Semtex, P4, gelignite or a claymore mine.
If you are ex-military, then surely you recognise the effects of military grade explosives? A bloody great hole in the ground and some pink mist where your mate was a moment ago...
How many alleged training camps would there be in Afghanistan? 10? 20? 100? What - now, or 5 years ago?
And the British and Americans have been doing the bidding of "Israel" there for how long now? How would I know? How would you know?
And how many civilians have died or been maimed there in that time? Forget it, you will not be expected to answer that question, since the figures are deliberately withheld by the British and American regimes.
Conspiracy, eh?
I neither know nor care what the nature of the explosives commonly used in Afghanistan is, ...
And the British and Americans have been doing the bidding of "Israel" there for how long now? How would I know? How would you know?
And how many civilians have died or been maimed there in that time? Forget it, you will not be expected to answer that question, since the figures are deliberately withheld by the British and American regimes.
Conspiracy, eh?
Do you just believe what you are told, then? Does the American government never lie? Does the British government never lie? When you were in the military, did you simply follow orders without questioning them? I'm not getting at you, personally, but I am curious, because an awful lot of people seem to be like that and I am trying to figure out why it is that way.
Tubthumper
24-Feb-10, 18:35
Do you just believe what you are told, then? Does the American government never lie? Does the British government never lie? When you were in the military, did you simply follow orders without questioning them? I'm not getting at you, personally, but I am curious, because an awful lot of people seem to be like that and I am trying to figure out why it is that way.
Nah, I'm becoming more cynical every day, I tend to ask 'where's the money and power issue' of everything now. But what can I do about it? Nowt, so I don't get agitated.
In the miltary? One relies on ones' superiors to give direction & guidance based on information and direction from above. Everyone relies on everyone else at various levels. And what you do is the will of Her Maj, as directed by the duly-elected government of our country. On my behalf and your behalf. You doubt it? Why are you in the military then?
You, Starvos, may consider yourself a maverick, a cynic, a doubter, one who sees all, but one day you'll realise that, kick against the traces all you want, doubt all you want, you just get on with it. Same as the rest of us. By the way, do you really think the powers that be are all that clever?
Try reading 'This Perfect Day' by Ira Levin. Just a good old work of fiction but damnably interesting.
Only the worst kind of vile and ignorant idiot would post a picture of a war victim, thinking they were educating or informing anyone.
We could all post such pictures, of Kurds, of servicemen and women.
The majority are not so weak in their mind to resort to such sensationalism.
Guess what, war and terrorism is always one sided.
There is always one side better at it than the other, there are always more casualties on one side.
Perhaps you removed the link once prompted, but it says everything about you that you put it there in the first place.
Truly pathetic, and beyond the pale.
I was not going to bother with your manufactured indignation, boozleburger, but someone pointed out to me that your contrived venom was posted at 11:08 today, whereas my post was edited to remove the link at 21:08 the day before. That is exactly 14 hours before your posting. You must have had to search around to go and find something to be indignant about, boozleburger.
It also should be pointed out to you that I did not place the photo in front of your delicate eyes, but only gave a link to a photo, together with a very clear warning for anyone who would be genuinely upset at such a sight.
This is a little bit like rheghead's dead fox picture, isn't it - a case of never mind the reality and truth, how dare you upset our tea and biscuits on the lawn.
Grow up and face the world, boozleburger. The image of that poor kid represents the harsh reality of this disceitful, bloody carnage taking place thousands of miles away.
Nah, I'm becoming more cynical every day, I tend to ask 'where's the money and power issue' of everything now. But what can I do about it? Nowt, so I don't get agitated.
In the miltary? One relies on ones' superiors to give direction & guidance based on information and direction from above. Everyone relies on everyone else at various levels. And what you do is the will of Her Maj, as directed by the duly-elected government of our country. On my behalf and your behalf. You doubt it? Why are you in the military then?
You, Starvos, may consider yourself a maverick, a cynic, a doubter, one who sees all, but one day you'll realise that, kick against the traces all you want, doubt all you want, you just get on with it. Same as the rest of us. By the way, do you really think the powers that be are all that clever?
Try reading 'This Perfect Day' by Ira Levin. Just a good old work of fiction but damnably interesting.
See, you can be serious when you want to be, Tubthumper. Thank you for answering my questions. I know exactly what you are saying.
When you were in the military, did you simply follow orders without questioning them?
eh? now there's a pacifist statement if I've ever seen one
eh? now there's a pacifist statement if I've ever seen one
I'm a pacifist when no one is attacking us, bekisman, but not otherwise. That is why I believe we have lost sight of what a "defense force" is about, but I do not believe in a "defense force" that is sent all around the globe, usually under the command of an American, by the way, and blows up and/or shoots innocent civilians in another soverign country. OK?
I'm a pacifist when no one is attacking us, bekisman, but not otherwise. That is why I believe we have lost sight of what a "defense force" is about, but I do not believe in a "defense force" that is sent all around the globe, usually under the command of an American, by the way, and blows up and/or shoots innocent civilians in another soverign country. OK?
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is not sent around the globe..
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is not sent around the globe..
They are in Haiti. That is certainly a long way from Palestine, where they live.
They are in Haiti. That is certainly a long way from Palestine, where they live.
And for merely asking for an investigation into why they are in Haiti Baroness Tonge got sacked by the Liberal party.
Must be an election coming up.
And for merely asking for an investigation into why they are in Haiti Baroness Tonge got sacked by the Liberal party.
Must be an election coming up.
Yes, and how wonderful that we have a democracy that is "the envy of the world," where all the parties are, ... well, basically exactly the same. Great to have choice. :)
Baroness Tonge is a very intelligent and well-spoken woman. So she does not fit in the Liberal Party (nor the Labour Party, nor the Conservative Party, I suppose).
They are in Haiti. That is certainly a long way from Palestine, where they live.
That's very good of you Stavro to mention this:
The IDF aid delegation dismantles the field hospital built in Port-Au-Prince, Haiti. Patients needing further care are transferred to other delegations while tents and beds are taken apart. The head of the medical team, Col. Doc. Itzik Kryce then speaks to the entire delegation during the final roll call. He describes the pride he feels seeing the success of the mission and emphasizes the importance of representing Israel and the IDF’s values in Haiti. The roll call ends with the delegation singing the Israeli national anthem, “Hatikva,” the hope.
To date: 1,111 patients were treated, 317 surgeries were preformed, and 16 births took place at the IDF field hospital..
An excellent achievement!
That's very good of you Stavro to mention this:
The IDF aid delegation dismantles the field hospital built in Port-Au-Prince, Haiti. Patients needing further care are transferred to other delegations while tents and beds are taken apart. The head of the medical team, Col. Doc. Itzik Kryce then speaks to the entire delegation during the final roll call. He describes the pride he feels seeing the success of the mission and emphasizes the importance of representing Israel and the IDF’s values in Haiti. The roll call ends with the delegation singing the Israeli national anthem, “Hatikva,” the hope.
To date: 1,111 patients were treated, 317 surgeries were preformed, and 16 births took place at the IDF field hospital..
An excellent achievement!
So why do they go 4,000 miles to a humanitarian crisis when they have one right next door in Gaza?
And for merely asking for an investigation into why they are in Haiti Baroness Tonge got sacked by the Liberal party. Must be an election coming up.
Nick Clegg said it was ‘ludicrous’, ‘offensive’, ‘wrong’ and ‘stupid’. It was bizarre for the baroness to suggest that Israel should launch an investigation to prove that a nonsense claim is, well, nonsense, said Clegg. But he insisted that Tonge is not anti-Semitic or racist, or else she wouldn’t be a Liberal Democrat. Yet within a couple of days, Clegg gave Tonge the sack
Nick Clegg said it was ‘ludicrous’, ‘offensive’, ‘wrong’ and ‘stupid’. It was bizarre for the baroness to suggest that Israel should launch an investigation to prove that a nonsense claim is, well, nonsense, said Clegg. But he insisted that Tonge is not anti-Semitic or racist, or else she wouldn’t be a Liberal Democrat. Yet within a couple of days, Clegg gave Tonge the sack
Considering because people of the Jewish faith are reluctant to carry doner cards, only around 8% of Israelis compared to around 30% in other developed countries has caused an acute shortage of organs in Israel.
Considering the market value of a kidney is $150,000.
Considering Israel was into Haiti with their field hospital faster than a ferret up a drainpipe.
Considering Israel has form for that sort of thing.
Considering Israel isn't exactly famous for their milk of human kindness.
Don't you think it would be a good idea to hold an investigation to show Israel is innocent of the allegations and put everyone's minds at rest?
Considering because people of the Jewish faith are reluctant to carry doner cards, only around 8% of Israelis compared to around 30% in other developed countries has caused an acute shortage of organs in Israel. Considering the market value of a kidney is $150,000.
Considering Israel was into Haiti with their field hospital faster than a ferret up a drainpipe.
Considering Israel has form for that sort of thing. Considering Israel isn't exactly famous for their milk of human kindness. Don't you think it would be a good idea to hold an investigation to show Israel is innocent of the allegations and put everyone's minds at rest?
Hmm wonder what professional source you got that from Fred. Ah, of course it's from your usual friends in the East:
'The allegation that IDF medics harvested organs from Haitians to use in transplants was published in the Gaza-based Web site The Palestine Telegraph, of which Tonge is a patron..'
Seeing that the Gaza Strip is run by a terrorist organisation: Hamas, pretty damn obvious - why do you support terrorist Fred?
Hmm wonder what professional source you got that from Fred. Ah, of course it's from your usual friends in the East:
'The allegation that IDF medics harvested organs from Haitians to use in transplants was published in the Gaza-based Web site The Palestine Telegraph, of which Tonge is a patron..'
Seeing that the Gaza Strip is run by a terrorist organisation: Hamas, pretty damn obvious - why do you support terrorist Fred?
Which part of my post are you claiming is not true?
Boozeburglar
24-Feb-10, 21:54
Yes, and how wonderful that we have a democracy that is "the envy of the world," where all the parties are, ... well, basically exactly the same. Great to have choice. :)
Baroness Tonge is a very intelligent and well-spoken woman. So she does not fit in the Liberal Party (nor the Labour Party, nor the Conservative Party, I suppose).
The fact that you and your cohort spend your time here where your protestations against what you see as unjust are futile speaks volumes for your commitment.
I got my ass out and protested and got involved in everything I cared about, and I still do.
It is obvious you and your fellow nutters are arm's length activists; isolated from reality by your lack of experience as well as your lack of real energy.
I need no more evidence than the amount of time you spend here, where your words and intentions are meaningless.
Hmm wonder what professional source you got that from Fred. Ah, of course it's from your usual friends in the East:
'The allegation that IDF medics harvested organs from Haitians to use in transplants was published in the Gaza-based Web site The Palestine Telegraph, of which Tonge is a patron..
Such claims have been common in Sweden for a long time. Is that what you mean by "the East"?
Anyway, simple to set up an inquiry to just see the truth or falsity of the claims. That would be the proper way to conduct business, especially given "Israel's" highly dubious record since it was illegally set up in 1948.
Seeing that the Gaza Strip is run by a terrorist organisation: Hamas, pretty damn obvious - why do you support terrorist Fred?
Democratically elected, old chap. Perhaps not to your taste, but you do not have a vote in Palestine. Of course, they are only "a terrorist organisation" on the word of Netanyahu, Bush, Blair, Cheney, Obama and Co. But this is all you see.
Boozeburglar
24-Feb-10, 22:13
Of course, they are only "a terrorist organisation" on the word of Netanyahu, Bush, Blair, Cheney, Obama and Co. But this is all you see.
Pray tell what your sources are?
Such claims have been common in Sweden for a long time. Is that what you mean by "the East"?
Well now didn't you see what he did there Stavro?
He couldn't fault any of the statements I made so as usual he next decided to attack the source.
Only I didn't give a source so he went and found a source of his own and declared it was the same source as I had used and then proceeded to attack it.
I don't see why he would be objecting to an investigation to prove Israel's innocence in this matter. Unless he thought Israel might be guilty that is.
Boozeburglar
24-Feb-10, 22:49
Why don't you and Stavro get a room, you Commy nail biters.
Well now didn't you see what he did there Stavro?
He couldn't fault any of the statements I made so as usual he next decided to attack the source.
Only I didn't give a source so he went and found a source of his own and declared it was the same source as I had used and then proceeded to attack it.
I don't see why he would be objecting to an investigation to prove Israel's innocence in this matter. Unless he thought Israel might be guilty that is.
I agree, Fred, and when reality starts overwhelming him, he feigns indignation. (Didn't he say umpteen times that he was leaving this thread?)
Why don't you and Stavro get a room, you Commy nail biters.
Shouldn't "Commy" be "Commie"? :D
I agree, Fred, and when reality starts overwhelming him, he feigns indignation. (Didn't he say umpteen times that he was leaving this thread?)
Well I WAS a wee bit busy with things.. but 'umpteen' ? nah, just a tad over there mate. Another exaggeration.
I just try and let you burble amongst yourselves, but it's so very very humorous reading the posts of a couple of naive stay at home 'indignant of Tunbridge Wells' posters. Attempting to upset other thread readers with some pathetic picture of some poor kid burnt by some gas explosion, somewhere.
I do try and stand back and watch you kids, but it is difficult, 'cos it's sooooo funny..
Right I'll try again and continue to read your, what is perceived as pro-terrorist support and lack of empathy for our armed forces (aka 'cannon fodder')..
Oh well must go and send an e-bluey to my daughter-in-law in Afghan (you know where that is?) look on a map, it's the closest you will ever get - really wonder why your 'type' (see above) never, ever in a million, zillion years get off their backsides and travel to these 'war zones' and use their efforts to alleviate perceived suffering there instead of indignant spouting on a minor website?
Come on, tell me why you've not gone to help? take some holiday time...
Nah, it'll never happen.. never mind, as they say in Spoons 'enjoy'...
Morning all,
I've been reading this thread with great interest. Having just returned from my second tour in Afghan in 12 months I think I am qualified to speak about this subject. My tours have been post and pre General McChrystals report, which is key to how ISAF and the US military are taking the fight to the taliban.
Where as ISAF forces have always had a hearts and minds approach to any operation they have been conducting, there has been a massive swing to how this is employed post McChrstals report. This has been clearly visible to myself as an Air Battle Manager. The term ROE has been banded about this thread, and again this is key in the report.
The Taliban are very happy to use woman, children and religious places to protect themselves. This happens daily and never gets reported on. They will use children as human shields, while bombing and planting IEDS. Post the report I have seen this happen more often because the Taliban are getting smart and know we are trying to win hearts and minds.
Recently I heard on the radio, a base getting mortared. They FACs/JTACS on the ground screaming at the fast air they had in support to help them. All they could do was do were several shows of force and they could not go kinetic(drop bombs) because they could not satisfy the ROE in some way. That is the best example I can give to the way ISAF forces are changing there attitudes.
We can argue all day if we should be in Afghan, my belief is that we shall be there for many years to come. What I can tell you is that we are making a difference and should be proud of every man and woman out there on ground.
What I can tell you is that we are making a difference and should be proud of every man and woman out there on ground.
Well said superted..
superted, Great to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.
What I can tell you is that we are making a difference and should be proud of every man and woman out there on ground.
Well said superted, a wee question. How do you and your colleagues serving in Afghanistan feel when you see the posts on here posted by Stavro, Fred and their ilk calling you murderers and worse? When they are sitting safely hiding behind a keyboard?
Because we still, despite NEW Labour, live in a democracy, Stavro & Fred and others have as much entitlement to post on this thread as anyone else.
As the vast majority (70% in last BBC poll) of Britons want the war in Afghanistan to end, I would suggest that they are the moral majority and not those people who want to continue this unjust and illegal war.
As the vast majority (70% in last BBC poll) of Britons want the war in Afghanistan to end, I would suggest that they are the moral majority and not those people who want to continue this unjust and illegal war.
they don't call em 'cannon fodder' do they ?
"Human shields" yet another media distraction tactic. The "real story" is the invasion of Afghanistan and the tragic loss of innocent lives.
bekisman:
The term canon fodder & collateral damage are interchangeable in this carnage i.e. if a soldier dies then he is collateral damage, if an Afgan civillian is killed they are canon fodder, the only winner is the war machine.
End War Now
Well said superted, a wee question. How do you and your colleagues serving in Afghanistan feel when you see the posts on here posted by Stavro, Fred and their ilk calling you murderers and worse? When they are sitting safely hiding behind a keyboard?
Like I said before we can discuss why we are there for ages, however we are there and we all have a job to do. Not wanting to get into an argument, all I'll say is i worked next to the helipad that brings injured soldiers back 2 or 3 times a DAY. Unfortunately most of these soldiers come back limbless and these are the lucky ones!
bekisman:
The term canon fodder & collateral damage are interchangeable in this carnage i.e. if a soldier dies then he is collateral damage, if an Afgan civillian is killed they are canon fodder, the only winner is the war machine.
End War Now
You should remember what you wrote:
23rd Feb [Anfield] wrote: "Inevitably they will soon be replaced by more canon fodder."
And that wern't the Afgan's.
"End War Now" - now THAT is a pacifist statement..
As I write it, is reported that two more soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan.
How many more do you want bekisman, and others, in order to change your view that this is a war that is unwinnable, illegal and wrong
As i write it, is reported that two more soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan. How many more do you want bekisman, and others, in order to change your view that this is a war that is unwinnable
Sorry for the delay, but just sent an e-bluey to my daughter-in-law in Lashkar Gah, Helmand (that's in Afghanistan) - you know -she's one of the 'cannon fodder' you write about - although I do accept she has more b's than you.
Wonder if you would count yourself in with the conscientious objectors in 1939 when that war seemed 'unwinnable' (sic) the white feather brigade.
Afghanistan was never going to be easy, but if you were happy to leave a group of terrorist to train and arm themselves before being sent out to the world to blow people to bits, then it says an awful lot about you.
My son has also served in Afghanistan, and they know what anti-military comments are posted on forums, being called Cannon Fodder. Are they upset? well no, there are many words in the military diction that describe these type - and by 'type' I do not include those that respect our Armed Forces,but may simply want them home. Folk that would not in a million years decry with nefarious comments, shouted by those who spout, protest, but do not have the courage of their convictions to get out to Afghanistan et el and help in their own way.
So, when are you off?
Will not dignify your rant with a reply.
I hope your daughter in law, and all other soldiers, return home safely, very very quickly.
Will not dignify your rant with a reply.
I hope your daughter in law, and all other soldiers, return home safely, very very quickly.
Rant? Dignify?
Never mind. But many thanks for your kind words above. Fiona aka 'cannon fodder' is back c23rd March..
But still, when are you off?
An sold song but the words still ring true:
Captain Collier came home, he's been fighting the war
And I guess he thought he'd be hailed as a hero and more
And he walked down the streets of the old home town
And he saw how it is around here now
Now Captain Collier had to call
far too many girls for a date that night
All the girls had gone out
with their long haired boys. Captain Collier, he cried
"What the hell have I been fighting for?"
Oh, Captain it's for you
We wanna bring you home
We wanna hold you in our arms
Come back and keep us warm.
P.F.C. Mannie Stein,
Had been drafted and gone
He'd been told that only cowards say no.
He came home and called some old friends,
They'd resisted the draft
And they both were in prison
And their wives and their kids
Were all skinny and having a bad time
And P.F.C Stein
He remembered the men
Called political prisoners you know where and when.
And he learned that the lines are tapped all the time now
And he's wondering if maybe his courage is needed at home now
Yes soldier we're afraid
We're not just bein' fools
We're gassed and beaten here at home
We've got to change the rules
Corp'ral Thomas McCann
Is a three year marine.
Someone told him he'd better join up,
It would would make him a man.
He came home and to the park he went
And he sat down on a bench
And a dungaree girl told him he'd been a man all along
And he looked at the sign that she carried in her hand.
It said "Stop the war and bring our brothers home"
And corp'ral McCann he looks into her eyes
And I believe that he's begun to understand
Oh soldier, It's for you
We formed our little bands
The politicians and the magazines
They just don't understand.
Yes, soldier it's for you
We're riskin' all we have
We're nailed and jailed the same as you
Our lives are up for grabs
Yes soldier it's for you
We want to bring you home
We wanna hold you in our arms
Come back and keep us warm.
Her bring our brother home,
Wonder if you would count yourself in with the conscientious objectors in 1939 when that war seemed 'unwinnable' (sic) the white feather brigade.
Ah, the good old white feather of the good old days of Tommy v The Hun. That goes back at least to WWI, bekisman, not WWII. No doubt you would have been in the firing squad had you been in WWI, mindlessly following orders and killing some 17-year-old kid on "your side" who did not want to play the game and run into a machine gun? Aye, them good old days. Bet you'd be right in there in Afghanistan, if you were not too old now? Mindlessly following orders, and not have a clue as to why you were there. Johnny Foreigner is always "the enemy," eh?
Afghanistan was never going to be easy, but if you were happy to leave a group of terrorist to train and arm themselves before being sent out to the world to blow people to bits, then it says an awful lot about you.
...
So, when are you off?
Wow, a few "terrorists" and "insurgents" (according to you and the mob), living in caves and traveling on horses and camels. What an "enemy." And how long have the American and British military machines been there? Not very impressive, if your view is correct, but completely predictable from the point of view of reality (as described to you by Anfield, Fred, and others).
Now you can go back to playing with your toy soldiers (and deluding yourself that atrocities are not taking place daily in your name).
Morning all,
I've been reading this thread with great interest. Having just returned from my second tour in Afghan in 12 months I think I am qualified to speak about this subject. My tours have been post and pre General McChrystals report, which is key to how ISAF and the US military are taking the fight to the taliban.
Where as ISAF forces have always had a hearts and minds approach to any operation they have been conducting, there has been a massive swing to how this is employed post McChrstals report. This has been clearly visible to myself as an Air Battle Manager. The term ROE has been banded about this thread, and again this is key in the report.
The Taliban are very happy to use woman, children and religious places to protect themselves. This happens daily and never gets reported on. They will use children as human shields, while bombing and planting IEDS. Post the report I have seen this happen more often because the Taliban are getting smart and know we are trying to win hearts and minds.
Recently I heard on the radio, a base getting mortared. They FACs/JTACS on the ground screaming at the fast air they had in support to help them. All they could do was do were several shows of force and they could not go kinetic(drop bombs) because they could not satisfy the ROE in some way. That is the best example I can give to the way ISAF forces are changing there attitudes.
We can argue all day if we should be in Afghan, my belief is that we shall be there for many years to come. What I can tell you is that we are making a difference and should be proud of every man and woman out there on ground.
An "Air Battle Manager"? Got an impressive air force, have they, the Afghanis?
You could win their hearts and minds easily, superted, by packing your kit bags and leaving them alone.
... the white feather brigade.
... My son has also served in Afghanistan, ... Folk that would not in a million years decry with nefarious comments, shouted by those who spout, protest, but do not have the courage of their convictions to get out to Afghanistan et el and help in their own way.
So, when are you off?
"COWARDICE, n. A charge often levelled by all-American types against those who stand up for their beliefs by refusing to fight in wars they find unconscionable, and who willingly go to prison or into exile in order to avoid violating their own consciences. These 'cowards' are to be contrasted with red-blooded, 'patriotic' youths who literally bend over, grab their ankles, submit to the government, fight in wars they do not understand (or disapprove of), and blindly obey orders to maim and to kill simply because they are ordered to do so—all to the howling approval of the all-American mob. This type of behavior is commonly termed 'courageous.'"
—Chaz Bufe, The Devil's Dictionaries ("American Heretic's Dictionary" section)
An sold song but the words still ring true:
Captain Collier came home, he's been fighting the warCome back and keep us warm - dah dah - Her bring our brother home,
What's your point Anfield? apart from pointing out this is from Beverly Sainte-Marie who's Canadian and, yes -of course you'd know: a pacifist.
Wrong again betisman. Try Buffy.
So you think that being a pacifist is a bad thing?
No more comment needed.
Ah, the good old white feather of the good old days of Tommy v The Hun. That goes back at least to WWI, bekisman, not WWII. No doubt you would have been in the firing squad had you been in WWI, mindlessly following orders and killing some 17-year-old kid on "your side" who did not want to play the game and run into a machine gun? Aye, them good old days. Bet you'd be right in there in Afghanistan, if you were not too old now? Mindlessly following orders, and not have a clue as to why you were there. Johnny Foreigner is always "the enemy," eh?
Wow, a few "terrorists" and "insurgents" (according to you and the mob), living in caves and traveling on horses and camels. What an "enemy." And how long have the American and British military machines been there? Not very impressive, if your view is correct, but completely predictable from the point of view of reality (as described to you by Anfield, Fred, and others).
Now you can go back to playing with your toy soldiers (and deluding yourself that atrocities are not taking place daily in your name).
Come on Stav - this was Anfield I was replying to, you don't have to hold his hand you know - can't he look after himself?
You ARE getting excited aren't you?.. now I'm all a quiver
1. mindlessly following orders 2. Mindlessly following orders (again) 3. playing with your toy soldiers 4.deluding yourself that atrocities are not taking place daily in your name..
When you've seen death and destruction - and I don't mean on wiki or TV then I might start taking some notice of your hysteria as mentioned above 1 - 4
Anyway enough of this nonsense, please answer when are you off to Afghanistan/Iraq to help the folkies there? - I've asked a number of times now you know
Wrong again betisman. Try Buffy.
So you think that being a pacifist is a bad thing?
No more comment needed.
Try Beverly Sainte-Marie AND it's B-e-k-i-s-m-a-n Fred did this too - try taking a deep breath and typing slower - it helps I understand.
'Pacifist': antiwar demonstrator, conscientious objector, dove, passive resister, peacemaker, peacemonger, peacenik OK? whch one are you?;)
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/pacifist
Below are details of some of the UK soldiers who have died in Afghanistan.
If our Government had not entered this illegal war, and instead listened to the people they would be still alive, and no doubt thanking the pacifists in our ranks.
We should also not forget the horrendous number of Afghan civillians who have also perished in this dirty war:
2-18-2010Dalzell, DouglasLieutenant271st Battalion Coldstream GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandHamstead Marshall, BerkshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackBabaji area of Nahr-e Saraj (central Helmand)Afghanistan 2-18-2010Walker, David "Davey" Lance Sergeant361st Battalion Scots Guards (1 Grenadier Guards Battle Group)British ArmyScotlandGlasgowHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad-e-Ali (central Helmand Province)Afghanistan 2-15-2010Mellors, GuySapper2036 Engineer Regiment ( Counter-Improvised Explosive Device Task Force)British ArmyEnglandCoventryHostile - hostile fire - IED attackPatrol Base EZARAY (near), to the north-east of Sangin District CentreAfghanistan 2-14-2010Dawson, SeanKingsman 19 The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment (2 LANCS)British ArmyEnglandAshton-Under-Lyne, ManchesterHostile - friendly fire - small arms fireMusa Qal'ah districtAfghanistan 2-14-2010Marshall, MarkRifleman296th BATTALION, THE RIFLESBritish ArmyEnglandExeterHostile - hostile fire - IED attackForward Operating Base INKERMAN (near Sangin)Afghanistan 2-13-2010Greenhalgh, DaveLance Sergean251st Battalion Grenadier GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandIlkeston, DerbyshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackNad 'Ali districtAfghanistan 2-11-2010Hicks, DarrenLance Corporal291st Battalion Coldstream GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandMousehole in CornwallHostile - hostile fire - IED attackBabaji district (central Helmand province)Afghanistan 2-08-2010Markland, DavidWarrant Officer Class 23636 Engineer RegimentBritish ArmyEnglandEuxton, LancashireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackNad 'Ali districtAfghanistan 2-07-2010McDonald, SeanPrivate26The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland (1 SCOTS)British ArmyCanadaTorontoHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSanginAfghanistan 2-07-2010Moore, JohnCorporal22The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland (1 SCOTS)British ArmyScotlandBellshill, Lanarkshire Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackSanginAfghanistan 2-01-2010Shaw,GrahamLance Corporal273rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (3 YORKS)British ArmyEnglandHuddersfieldHostile - hostile fire - IED attackMalgir (near)Afghanistan 2-01-2010Riley, LiamCorporal213rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (3 YORKS)British ArmyEnglandSheffieldHostile - hostile fire - IED attackMalgir (near)Afghanistan 1-24-2010Cooper, DanielLance Corporal 213rd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandHerefordHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSanginAfghanistan 1-22-2010Aldridge, Peter Rifleman194th Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandFolkestone, KentHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSanginAfghanistan 1-15-2010Farmer, LukeRifleman193rd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandWest YorkshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 1-15-2010Brownson, Corporal LeeCorporal303rd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandBishop AucklandHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 1-11-2010Read, DanielCaptain3111 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps,British ArmyEnglandKentHostile - hostile fireMusa Qala (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 1-03-2010Hayes, RobertPrivate191st Battalion The Royal Anglian RegimentBritish ArmyEnglandCambridgeHostile - hostile fire - IED attackNad e Ali district (Helmand province)Afghanistan 12-31-2009Watson, DavidSapper3333 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), Royal EngineersBritish ArmyEnglandWhickham, Newcastle-upon-TyneHostile - hostile fire - IED attackPatrol Base Blenheim (vacinity of), near SanginAfghanistan 12-28-2009Howell, AidanRifleman193rd Battalion, The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandSidcup, KentHostile - hostile fire - IED attackKajaki area of Helmand ProvinceAfghanistan 12-22-2009Brown. TommyLance Corporal0The Parachute RegimentBritish ArmyNot yet reportedNot yet reportedHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 12-21-2009Roney, ChristopherLance Corporal233rd Battalion, The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandSunderland, Tyne and WearHostile - hostile fire - small arms firePatrol Base Almas (near Sangin, central Helmand Province)Afghanistan 12-20-2009Pritchard, Michael DavidLance Corporal22The Royal Military PoliceBritish ArmyEnglandMaidstone, KentHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 12-19-2009Hornby, SimonCorporal292nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s RegimentBritish ArmyEnglandLiverpoolHostile - hostile fire - IED attackNad-e-Ali area, central Helmand ProvinceAfghanistan 12-15-2009Kirkness, David LeslieLance Corporal343rd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandWakefield, West YorkshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 12-15-2009Brown, James StephenRifleman183rd Battalion, The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandFarnborough, HampshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 12-07-2009Drane, Adam PaulLance Corporal231st Battalion The Royal Anglian RegimenBritish ArmyEnglandBury St EdmundsHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e-Ali district (central Helmand province)Afghanistan 11-30-2009Amer, John PaxtonSergeant301st Battalion Coldstream GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandSunderlandHostile - hostile fire - IED attackBabaji area (central Helmand province)Afghanistan 11-18-2009Loughran-Dickson, Robert DavidSergeant334th Regiment, Royal Military PoliceBritish ArmyNot Yet ReportedNot Yet ReportedHostile - hostile fire - small arms firePatrol Base Wahid (Nad-e-Ali District)Afghanistan 11-15-2009Marlton-Thomas, Loren Owen ChristopherCorporal2833 Engineer Regiment, Royal EngineersBritish ArmyEnglandNot yet reportedHostile - hostile fire - IED attackGereshk (Patrol Base Sandford,)Afghanistan 11-15-2009Fentiman, AndrewRifleman237th Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandCambridgeHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 11-08-2009Bassett, John SamuelRifleman201 Platoon, A Company, 4th Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandPlymouthHostile - hostile fire - IED attackHelmand provinceAfghanistan 11-07-2009Allen, PhilipRifleman202nd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandDorsetHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 11-05-2009Scott, Phillip Serjeant303rd Battalion The RiflesBritish ArmyEnglandMalton, North YorkshireHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSangin (Helmand Province)Afghanistan 11-03-2009Webster-Smith, NicholasCorporal24Royal Military PoliceBritish ArmyEnglandSaundersfoot, PembrokeshireHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e Ali District in Helmand ProvinceAfghanistan 11-03-2009Chant, DarrenWarrant Officer Class 1391st Battalion The Grenadier GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandLovage Way, HorndeanHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e Ali District in Helmand ProvinceAfghanistan 11-03-2009Major, JamesGuardsman181st Battalion The Grenadier GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandCleethorpes, LincolnshireHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e-Ali district of Helmand provinceAfghanistan 11-03-2009Boote, StevenActing Corporal22Royal Military PoliceBritish ArmyEnglandBirkenheadHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e-Ali district of Helmand provinceAfghanistan 11-03-2009Telford, MatthewSergeant371st Battalion The Grenadier GuardsBritish ArmyEnglandGrimsby, South HumbersideHostile - hostile fire - small arms fireNad e-Ali district of Helmand provinceAfghanistan 10-31-2009Schmid, Olaf Sean GeorgeStaff Sergeant30Royal Logistics CorpsBritish ArmyEnglandTruro, CornwallHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSanginAfghanistan 10-25-2009Mason, ThomasCorporal27The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of ScotlandBritish ArmyScotlandBellshill, GlasgowHostile - hostile fire - IED attackSelly Oak Hospital (Birmingham, UK)England 10-22-2009Oakland, JamesCorporal26Royal Military PoliceBritish ArmyEnglandNew Moston, ManchesterHostile - hostile fireGereshk
Above are details of some of the UK soldiers who have died in Afghanistan.
If our Government had not entered this illegal war, and instead listened to the people they would be still alive, and no doubt thanking the pacifists in our ranks.
We should also not forget the horrendous number of Afghan civillians who have also perished in this dirty war:
All of them.
So Anfield, at least we now know exactly what you are:
Antiwar demonstrator,
Conscientious objector,
dove,
passive resister,
peacemaker,
peace monger,
peacenik
At least I know where you stand - you post trying to elucidate a response to your anti-war rhetoric.
Presumably it makes you feel better publishing the names of those who have died. I have no idea why you have done this, it will make not one jot of difference.
Did you do one for WWI, WWII, Korea, and the rest of them; a list of those who died 'for their country' which you cheapen by
your sick gimmick
An "Air Battle Manager"? Got an impressive air force, have they, the Afghanis?
You could win their hearts and minds easily, superted, by packing your kit bags and leaving them alone.
Like I said...If you can be bothered to read, I'm not getting into an argument about if we should be there or not. What I said was a statement of fact!!!
You are only allowed to post 10,000 characters per post.
the list, of just UK sodiers, I published is 40,000 characters, so only 1/4 of UK deaths shown.
Just imagine how lond it would have been if ALL casualities of this illegal and immoral war was listed. I am sure that I could easily double this if I include the war in Iraq.
As for WW1, WW2 etc etc, if it was not for people like you, i.e soldiers who obey orders, then there would be no lists to compile.
The "football match" of WW1 showed that the everyday soldiers of both sides did not want to fight, they were ordered to.
Do you honestly think that every soldier who participates in war wants to see action and cause death? If you do then you are very deluded my friend.
Tubthumper
25-Feb-10, 19:56
Don't get sucked in, SuperTed. All people of this Country have a right to believe or not to believe in something, including whether we should be at war in Afghanistan.
Very quick to exert their right are these folk, not so quick at accepting that others have that same right. Keen on democracy, and on ripping the guts out of it when it doesn't meet their warped requirements.
They don't usually see a wider picture, but are easily attracted to whispered tales of cover-up and subterfuge, especially when it involves government or big business. Conversely, they will immediately denounce any claim that an elected government is capable of actually governing, which might seem a bit strange. And you usually find that they have no hesitation in descending to the foul and abusive to prove whatever point they're trying to make. In some ways they're not that different from those who support the terrorists/ freedom fighters they make excuses for.
You're arguing with citizens who live their lives through their keyboards. They get a kick out of getting reactions. Their opinions are second-hand, picked up from whatever outrage.com website they can find. They don't contribute much, either to the life of their community or to the Country they live in, in fact in many ways they're actually 'anti-people'.
However that's what you signed up for, to defend these people and others who hate you and yours, who would destroy all that you value and replace it with greyness and misery.
Except they're usually nowhere to be found when anything actually needs done..
So free speech is off agenda now
You're arguing with citizens who live their lives through their keyboards. They get a kick out of getting reactions. Their opinions are second-hand, picked up from whatever outrage.com website they can find. They don't contribute much, either to the life of their community or to the Country they live in, in fact in many ways they're actually 'anti-people'.Except they're usually nowhere to be found when anything actually needs done..
Again you are right Tubthumper - at least I've uncovered what Anfield is, so maybe this time I'll just ignore the self-serving ego seeking, conchie.. Pathetic, every one of those names he put up was a 'willing volunteer' who knew exactly what they were doing. My Grand father was killed in WW1 - my uncle in WW2 thank GOD we had courageous MEN (I emphasise men) to protect us and not those who put up the white flag and gave in.
But then I doubt if Anfield accepts that his freedom was purchased by the deaths of my forebears.. no, on second thoughts, I won't bother answering these cowards..
Come on Stav - this was Anfield I was replying to, you don't have to hold his hand you know - can't he look after himself?
You ARE getting excited aren't you?.. now I'm all a quiver
1. mindlessly following orders 2. Mindlessly following orders (again) 3. playing with your toy soldiers 4.deluding yourself that atrocities are not taking place daily in your name..
When you've seen death and destruction - and I don't mean on wiki or TV then I might start taking some notice of your hysteria as mentioned above 1 - 4
Anyway enough of this nonsense, please answer when are you off to Afghanistan/Iraq to help the folkies there? - I've asked a number of times now you know
No, i'm not being hysterical. I find it all sad that masses of people can be so easily herded about by politicians, to serve a desire that most of them will go through their entire lives not even knowing about.
You think you are on the side of "right," I do not doubt it, but I do not have to have been collecting pieces of human beings (and animals - it is probably difficult to determine which is which after a "daisy-cutter") into body bags in order to question the legitimacy, legality, reason, cause, morality of it all. In that respect, you are simply wrong.
Tubthumper
25-Feb-10, 20:18
Bekisman - remember that everyone has the right to express their opinions, that's what you signed up for.
Like I said...If you can be bothered to read, I'm not getting into an argument about if we should be there or not. What I said was a statement of fact!!!
I notice you ignored a simple question. Do the Afghanis have an impressive air force? Your grand-sounding job title definitely implies that they do.
Yoda the flump
25-Feb-10, 20:22
Do you honestly think that every soldier who participates in war wants to see action and cause death? If you do then you are very deluded my friend.
How very apt, I think that is the point that Bekisman and others are trying to make. No NATO soldier wants to see action and cause death.
How the deluded are deluded!
Don't get sucked in, SuperTed. All people of this Country have a right to believe or not to believe in something, including whether we should be at war in Afghanistan.
Very quick to exert their right are these folk, not so quick at accepting that others have that same right. Keen on democracy, and on ripping the guts out of it when it doesn't meet their warped requirements.
They don't usually see a wider picture, but are easily attracted to whispered tales of cover-up and subterfuge, especially when it involves government or big business. Conversely, they will immediately denounce any claim that an elected government is capable of actually governing, which might seem a bit strange. And you usually find that they have no hesitation in descending to the foul and abusive to prove whatever point they're trying to make. In some ways they're not that different from those who support the terrorists/ freedom fighters they make excuses for.
You're arguing with citizens who live their lives through their keyboards. They get a kick out of getting reactions. Their opinions are second-hand, picked up from whatever outrage.com website they can find. They don't contribute much, either to the life of their community or to the Country they live in, in fact in many ways they're actually 'anti-people'.
However that's what you signed up for, to defend these people and others who hate you and yours, who would destroy all that you value and replace it with greyness and misery.
Except they're usually nowhere to be found when anything actually needs done..
O dear, the rantings of another ex-military-man. And just when I thought you were becoming strangely open to debate.
"Anti-people"!! Ha ha, what the heck are they? :lol:
Again you are right Tubthumper - at least I've uncovered what Anfield is, so maybe this time I'll just ignore the self-serving ego seeking, conchie.. Pathetic, every one of those names he put up was a 'willing volunteer' who knew exactly what they were doing. My Grand father was killed in WW1 - my uncle in WW2 thank GOD we had courageous MEN (I emphasise men) to protect us and not those who put up the white flag and gave in.
But then I doubt if Anfield accepts that his freedom was purchased by the deaths of my forebears.. no, on second thoughts, I won't bother answering these cowards..
"Uncovered what Anfield is" ... "self-serving ego seeking, conchie" ... "those who put up the white flag and cave in" ... "these cowards."
Now who's getting hysterical, bekisman?
The real man stands up for what he believes is right and just, in the face of the mindless mob who are baying for "the enemy's" blood.
"Uncovered what Anfield is" ... "self-serving ego seeking, conchie" ... "those who put up the white flag and cave in" ... "these cowards."
Now who's getting hysterical, bekisman?
The real man stands up for what he believes is right and just, in the face of the mindless mob who are baying for "the enemy's" blood.
Are YOU a pacifist too Stav?
Are YOU a pacifist too Stav?
Why? You going to send me a white feather, beks?
Bekisman - remember that everyone has the right to express their opinions, that's what you signed up for.
Of course others can have an opinion, don't really bother me, just find them, well, amusing. But been an interesting week; Was there when an old friend passed on, and a few minutes ago learnt I'm a granddad again, I think that's ten or is it 11, more blinking birthday and Christmas pressies...:Razz
Why? You going to send me a white feather, beks?
Come on Stav - well are you? (no white feather; honest!)
".. My Grand father was killed in WW1 - my uncle in WW2.."
I am very sad to hear this bekisman.
There was a scene in the film "Forrest Gump" which the American Colonel was abusive to Mr Gump because he (Forrest) has saved him from being killed and taken him to the evacuation helicopter and was protesting that Forrest Gump had "..stolen his destiny of dying in a war.."
I don't want ANYONE to die. (Full stop)
... a few minutes ago learnt I'm a granddad again, I think that's ten or is it 11, more blinking birthday and Christmas pressies...:Razz
Congratulations to you and your family! :)
"..But been an interesting week; Was there when an old friend passed on, and a few minutes ago learnt I'm a granddad again.."
Congratulations, have you registered child for a regiment yet?
Congratulations to you and your family! :)
Thanks Stav.. hopefully they'll stop breeding, can't aford it!:lol:
northener
25-Feb-10, 21:15
"COWARDICE, n. A charge often levelled by all-American types against those who stand up for their beliefs by refusing to fight in wars they find unconscionable, and who willingly go to prison or into exile in order to avoid violating their own consciences. These 'cowards' are to be contrasted with red-blooded, 'patriotic' youths who literally bend over, grab their ankles, submit to the government, fight in wars they do not understand (or disapprove of), and blindly obey orders to maim and to kill simply because they are ordered to do so—all to the howling approval of the all-American mob. This type of behavior is commonly termed 'courageous.'"
—Chaz Bufe, The Devil's Dictionaries ("American Heretic's Dictionary" section)
S'funny. OED doesn't say that.
But been an interesting week; Was there when an old friend passed on, and a few minutes ago learnt I'm a granddad again,
Congratulations, have you registered child for a regiment yet?
You are a bit of a sicko Anfield - no sense of humour either, you just can't leave it can you.
You are a bit of a sicko Anfield - no sense of humour either, you just can't leave it can you.
What is your problem with that?
I notice you ignored a simple question. Do the Afghanis have an impressive air force? Your grand-sounding job title definitely implies that they do.
I can't believe I'm answering this, but here goes. I added my job title because I wanted to give some credence to my statement. To answer your ridiculous question, of course the afghans don't have an airforce( however they are starting to build one) however around the main airfields in afghan is some of the busiest airspace you will see. Infact bastion is as busy as Luton airport. They also don't have an area radar, and that's where I come in. Google is your friend ;-)
Yoda the flump
25-Feb-10, 22:32
You are a bit of a sicko Anfield - no sense of humour either, you just can't leave it can you.
I would expect nothing less considering Anfield's posts
Are YOU a pacifist too Stav?
Sounds like Haw Haw to me
... of course the afghans don't have an airforce( however they are starting to build one) ... They also don't have an area radar, ...
Thank you for answering the question, superted, though why it was "ridiculous," given that you and others are claiming this to be a "war," is unclear to me.
The Iraqis did not have an air force either, did they?
Dropping bombs and missiles on human beings who have a method of defending themselves is bad enough, but dropping on them on human beings who have no method of defending themselves is indiscriminate slaughter and genocide.
Sounds like Haw Haw to me
Hello ducati, good of you to pop out of the woodwork.
Any chance you can answer the question from your troublemaker thread "This Forum" now, please? To remind you: when was "war" declared and against whom?
Thank you for answering the question, superted, though why it was "ridiculous," given that you and others are claiming this to be a "war," is unclear to me.
The Iraqis did not have an air force either, did they?
Dropping bombs and missiles on human beings who have a method of defending themselves is bad enough, but dropping on them on human beings who have no method of defending themselves is indiscriminate slaughter and genocide.
1...I did not claim it to be a war.
2...The Iraqis did have an Airforce.
3...How about people planting IEDs so humans can lose limbs and lives???
Your Credibility is slowly going out the window my friend.;)
1...I did not claim it to be a war.
2...The Iraqis did have an Airforce.
3...How about people planting IEDs so humans can lose limbs and lives???
Your Credibility is slowly going out the window my friend.;)
1. So you do not accept your leaders when they tell you it is a "War on Terror"? Well, at least we have something in common. If it is not a war, then what are you doing there?
2. The Iraqis were not allowed to fly since the first "Gulf War" in 1991. It was declared a "No Fly" zone by the invading army.
3. I agree, that is disgustingly evil.
1. So you do not accept your leaders when they tell you it is a "War on Terror"? Well, at least we have something in common. If it is not a war, then what are you doing there?
2. The Iraqis were not allowed to fly since the first "Gulf War" in 1991. It was declared a "No Fly" zone by the invading army.
3. I agree, that is disgustingly evil.
Random quote
Do you know, I've seen a hell of a lot of complaining about the current situation on this and other threads by Stavro and his (Taliban) brothers.
But no practical suggestions on how to actually stop the war and bring the girls and boys home.
Why don't we address this? I'll start:
We call all the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan.
We stand them shoulder to shoulder around the UK to keep out the suicide bombers (or do you expect them to just forget it?)
Of course then we have the problem of the population. Obviously we would have to end immigration completely. Then we have to intern or deport everyone in the UK of Mid East or Asian appearance. Otherwise how would we know who the terrorists were?
In the meantime while this is the happy situation at home, the Taliban have moved back into Kabul and hanged/burned/beheaded Kalzai and his government, then welcomed Alqeda back with open arms. (doesn't bother us we are now impregnable). Oh, not sure about Iraq I think we have left a bit of a vacuum there but hey Iran will probably just take over. But that’s OK not our problem and they are a just and peaceful bunch.
Apologies if this sounds flippant but I can't really see another scenario.
What do you guys think?
Hello ducati, good of you to pop out of the woodwork.
I know this is your job but it isn't mine
I know this is your job but it isn't mine
Answering simple questions isn't your forte either, by the seem of things.
I don't want to bog you down with too many questions (one seems more than enough to stump you), but here is just one more -
I am fascinated by your logic. If women and children are being murdered by allied bombs in Afghanistan (and men, too, because I do not know why they are always left out), with our boys away from home, then why would we need to boot all Asians and Arabs out when our boys are back and Afghanistanis are not being murdered by Allied bombs?
(By the way, even the BBC has admitted that "Al Queda" does not exist and never has done. "Al Queda" was created by the CIA. And as for Bin Laden, well ... it seems to be taking an awful lot of time and lives to find him.)
By the way, even the BBC has admitted that "Al Queda" does not exist and never has done. "Al Queda" was created by the CIA.
.......source ?
.......source ?
There were several articles on this a couple of months ago.
The following video gives the story fairly well -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mztfFdpd1Rk&feature=player_embedded
The following video gives the story fairly well -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mztfFdpd1Rk&feature=player_embedded
There's a rather large leap to saying something doesn't exist, just because it's been given a widely adopted brand monicker by a third party.
That's like saying the British Raj never existed. Or that there is no such place as the "Far North" (which incidentally I hate that term, but it seems to have adopted by the media and councillors to conveniently refer to anything north of Dornoch). Or that there are no such people as Orgers.
Answering simple questions isn't your forte either, by the seem of things.
I don't want to bog you down with too many questions (one seems more than enough to stump you), but here is just one more -
I am fascinated by your logic. If women and children are being murdered by allied bombs in Afghanistan (and men, too, because I do not know why they are always left out), with our boys away from home, then why would we need to boot all Asians and Arabs out when our boys are back and Afghanistanis are not being murdered by Allied bombs?
You do expect them to just forget it?
As far as Alqeda is concerned *Shrug* (thanks Brandy). Someone means us harm, I don't really care what they are called.
You may wonder how I worked out you were Taliban. It came to me the other day. If I wanted to spread propaganda in the UK, what better way than to infiltrate local Forums? It’s easy and cheap and the strategy can be adapted and developed over a long period of time. I assume you don't single out the org? If you do your geography needs a brush up. (although my knowledge of the Pakistan, Afghan border isn't great to be honest).
You gravitate to this sort of thread for preference but do take part in the uncontroversial discussions as well, very clever.
The "This Forum" thread was a great example, you and Fred were the only ones to take it seriously. (although I did get good repped so it must have had resonance elsewhere).
You gave yourself away though; babies on bayonets (or a variation thereof) is an absolute classic propaganda tool.
You mentioned the This Forum Thread was trouble making, not so, the law enforcement monitoring reference was perfectly true. I've been in the IT industry for 30 odd years and I have sold several police forces the systems to do exactly that.
Incidentally, Fred is making a pretty poor fist of unravelling our legal system on another thread, can I suggest he needs a bit more training?
Or that there are no such people as Orgers.
:eek: There aren’t?
Any chance you can answer the question from your troublemaker thread "This Forum" now, please? To remind you: when was "war" declared and against whom?
Why? I understand you have a "killer" response rehearsed, but why is it so important to you?
Don't get sucked in, SuperTed. All people of this Country have a right to believe or not to believe in something, including whether we should be at war in Afghanistan.
Very quick to exert their right are these folk, not so quick at accepting that others have that same right. Keen on democracy, and on ripping the guts out of it when it doesn't meet their warped requirements.
They don't usually see a wider picture, but are easily attracted to whispered tales of cover-up and subterfuge, especially when it involves government or big business. Conversely, they will immediately denounce any claim that an elected government is capable of actually governing, which might seem a bit strange. And you usually find that they have no hesitation in descending to the foul and abusive to prove whatever point they're trying to make. In some ways they're not that different from those who support the terrorists/ freedom fighters they make excuses for.
You're arguing with citizens who live their lives through their keyboards. They get a kick out of getting reactions. Their opinions are second-hand, picked up from whatever outrage.com website they can find. They don't contribute much, either to the life of their community or to the Country they live in, in fact in many ways they're actually 'anti-people'.
However that's what you signed up for, to defend these people and others who hate you and yours, who would destroy all that you value and replace it with greyness and misery.
Except they're usually nowhere to be found when anything actually needs done..
Taking your advice...lol ;)
northener
26-Feb-10, 13:00
Don't get sucked in, SuperTed. All people of this Country have a right to believe or not to believe in something, including whether we should be at war in Afghanistan.
Very quick to exert their right are these folk, not so quick at accepting that others have that same right. Keen on democracy, and on ripping the guts out of it when it doesn't meet their warped requirements.
They don't usually see a wider picture, but are easily attracted to whispered tales of cover-up and subterfuge, especially when it involves government or big business. Conversely, they will immediately denounce any claim that an elected government is capable of actually governing, which might seem a bit strange. And you usually find that they have no hesitation in descending to the foul and abusive to prove whatever point they're trying to make. In some ways they're not that different from those who support the terrorists/ freedom fighters they make excuses for.
You're arguing with citizens who live their lives through their keyboards. They get a kick out of getting reactions. Their opinions are second-hand, picked up from whatever outrage.com website they can find. They don't contribute much, either to the life of their community or to the Country they live in, in fact in many ways they're actually 'anti-people'.
However that's what you signed up for, to defend these people and others who hate you and yours, who would destroy all that you value and replace it with greyness and misery.
Except they're usually nowhere to be found when anything actually needs done..
Tubthumper, that is possibly one of the best asessments I've seen anywhere yet.
Thankyou.
You may wonder how I worked out you were Taliban. It came to me the other day.
Now I know that you have ceased taking your medication.
Incidentally, Fred is making a pretty poor fist of unravelling our legal system on another thread, can I suggest he needs a bit more training?
Well you had better tell him that. As far as I've seen, he is trying to explain to you the difference between Admiralty Law and Common Law. If it is above your head, then that figures. You are unable to answer the simple question put to you so many times now, that I doubt you will even begin to understand the workings of the legal system.
There's a rather large leap to saying something doesn't exist, just because it's been given a widely adopted brand monicker by a third party.
Here are just a few more "third party" sources, some of which may surprise you (just the very tip of the iceberg, there are a lot more) -
"The interests behind the Bush Administration, such as the CFR, The Trilateral Commission - founded by Brzezinski for David Rockefeller - and the Bilderberger Group, have prepared for and are now moving to implement open world dictatorship within the next five years. They are not fighting against terrorists. They are fighting against citizens." -- Dr. Johannes B. Koeppl, Ph.D., former German defense ministry official and advisor to former NATO Secretary General Manfred Woerner ...
"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushs have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." George Bush Sr. 1992
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - GW Bush, March 13, 2002
"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight." -- JFK
"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy." Henry Kissinger, quoted by Bob Woodward in The Final Days, 1976
"Several" (as described on BBC teletext) more afghanistanis killed today as a result of suicide bomb.
Several = 17, this does not include the UK soldier killed.
How many more before we end this senseless slaughter by all sides in this illegal war
This is the ruling given by the presiding judge over claims that the UK assisted in the torture of an english citizen:
"The SyS [Security Service, MI5] were making it clear in March 2005, through a report from the Intelligence and Security Committee that 'they operated a culture that respected human rights and that coercive interrogation techniques were alien to the Services' general ethics, methodology and training' indeed they 'denied that [they] knew of any ill-treatment of detainees interviewed by them whilst detained by or on behalf of the [US] Government'.
"Yet that does not seem to be true: as the evidence in this case showed, at least some SyS officials appear to have a dubious record when it comes to human rights and coercive techniques, and indeed when it comes to frankness about the UK's involvement with the mistreatment of Mr Mohammed by US officials.
"I have in mind in particular witness B, but it appears likely that there were others.
"The good faith of the Foreign Secretary is not in question, but he prepared the certificates [applications to withhold information in the name of national security] partly, possibly largely, on the basis of information and advice provided by SyS personnel.
"Regrettably, but inevitably, this must raise the question whether any statement in the certificates on an issue concerning such mistreatment can be relied on, especially when the issue is whether contemporaneous communications to the SyS about such mistreatment should be revealed publicly.
"Not only is there an obvious reason for distrusting any UK Government assurance, based on SyS advice and information, because of previous 'form', but the Foreign Office and the SyS have an interest in the suppression of such information."
THE FIRST JUDGEMENT
That paragraph was originally replaced by a much shorter one that makes some general remarks about how the Foreign Secretary relied on advice from MI5 and that it was not clear whether Witness B, an officer under police investigation, had any involvement in Mr Mohamed's mistreatment.
THE FINAL PARAGRAPH
On Friday 26 February, Lord Neuberger issued a final opinion on the matter.
In effect, he uses the same language and makes the same observations - but he confines his criticisms to the specifics of Mr Mohamed's case - rather than a broader attack on the reputation of the secret intelligence agencies and their respect for human rights. He also removes the reference to "previous form".
This is the final version of Paragraph 168:
"The Security Services had made it clear in March 2005, through a report from the Intelligence and Security Committee, that 'they operated a culture that respected human rights and that coercive interrogation techniques were alien to the Services' general ethics, methodology and training', indeed they 'denied that [they] knew of any ill-treatment of detainees interviewed by them whilst detained by or on behalf of the [US] Government'.
"Yet, in this case, that does not seem to have been true: as the evidence showed, some Security Services officials appear to have a dubious record relating to actual involvement, and frankness about any such involvement, with the mistreatment of Mr Mohamed when he was held at the behest of US officials.
"I have in mind in particular witness B, but the evidence in this case suggests that it is likely that there were others.
"The good faith of the Foreign Secretary is not in question, but he prepared the certificates partly, possibly largely, on the basis of information and advice provided by Security Services personnel.
"Regrettably, but inevitably, this must raise the question whether any statement in the certificates on an issue concerning the mistreatment of Mr Mohamed can be relied on, especially when the issue is whether contemporaneous communications to the Security Services about such mistreatment should be revealed publicly.
"Not only is there some reason for distrusting such a statement, given that it is based on Security Services' advice and information, because of previous, albeit general, assurances in 2005, but also the Security Services have an interest in the suppression of such information."
"Several" (as described on BBC teletext) more afghanistanis killed today as a result of suicide bomb.
Several = 17, this does not include the UK soldier killed.
How many more before we end this senseless slaughter by all sides in this illegal war
Puts all the pointless bickering in perspective doesn't it?
This is the ruling given by the presiding judge over claims that the UK assisted in the torture of an english citizen: "
He was Not blinking english!
"Several" (as described on BBC teletext) more afghanistanis killed today as a result of suicide bomb.
Several = 17, this does not include the UK soldier killed.
How many more before we end this senseless slaughter by all sides in this illegal war
In 2009 NATO troops are known to have killed 153 children in Afghanistan, 131 in air strikes, 22 in night time raids. They were averaging 3 a week last year, likely to be more this year.
For the umpteenth time, he's not British. He's not even a British 'resident'.
He is an Ethiopian national who lived here for a few years before choosing to move to Afghanistan, where he is said to have attended an Alky Ada training camp.
At the time of his arrest, he was attempting to board a plane in Pakistan using a forged passport.
Frankly, he is not our responsibility. We owe him nothing. Why would anyone in their right mind want him back?
British intelligence officers are accused of colluding in his alleged torture on the basis of supplying a few pertinent questions to his interrogators about what he got up to while he was living here.
That's their job, for heaven's sake. They would be failing in their duty if they didn't make every attempt to glean information from suspected terrorists who want to do us harm.
No one is actually accusing any British officer of physically torturing him, merely of turning a blind eye. There is a legitimate debate as to whether he was tortured at all, in the true sense of the word.
While at Gitmo, he was shackled and deprived of sleep - practices approved at the time by the White House. He is also said to have suffered severe mental stress over threats that he would be removed from U.S. custody and transferred to a more cruel regime.
OK, so the Americans put the frighteners on him, but if they hadn't cared less whether he lived or died, they wouldn't have had him on suicide watch.
His treatment wasn't pretty, but it has to be put in context of the 3,000 people killed in the worst-ever terrorist attack on U.S. soil.
As to his claims to have suffered genital mutilation while in CIA custody in Morocco, there has never been any firm evidence produced.
Binyam Mohamed maintains he went to Afghanistan not to train with the Taliban, but to confront his addiction to drugs and alcohol.
Most people would have signed up to AA (Alcoholics Anonymous, not Alky Ada) or checked themselves into The Priory. He travelled halfway round the world to one of the most inhospitable, tyrannical countries on Earth.
For a man said to have been in mortal terror of being tortured, he appears to have had no problem moving to a jurisdiction which would have cheerfully beheaded him or stoned him to death for taking a sip of alcohol.
The inconsistencies in his story are glaring, yet he has found a gullible audience for his fairy tales, including a fawning 'interview' on the BBC.
The prime movers behind this case appear to be motivated as much by rampant anti-Americanism as any concern about the Binman's 'yuman rites'.
Tubthumper
26-Feb-10, 19:24
The inconsistencies in his story are glaring, yet he has found a gullible audience for his fairy tales, including a fawning 'interview' on the BBC.
Ah. That's where you've gone wrong. You see, if the interview was on the BBC then it must have been part of the great Government cover-up...
Or was it...:eek:
WoooooOOOOOOoooooo!
Oh I forgot, Ref #200 "Are YOU a pacifist too Stav? (For the record I am not).. just interested where you stand...
For the umpteenth time, he's not British. He's not even a British 'resident'.
He is an Ethiopian national who lived here for a few years before choosing to move to Afghanistan, where he is said to have attended an Alky Ada training camp.
At the time of his arrest, he was attempting to board a plane in Pakistan using a forged passport.
Frankly, he is not our responsibility. We owe him nothing. Why would anyone in their right mind want him back?
British intelligence officers are accused of colluding in his alleged torture on the basis of supplying a few pertinent questions to his interrogators about what he got up to while he was living here.
That's their job, for heaven's sake. They would be failing in their duty if they didn't make every attempt to glean information from suspected terrorists who want to do us harm.
No one is actually accusing any British officer of physically torturing him, merely of turning a blind eye. There is a legitimate debate as to whether he was tortured at all, in the true sense of the word.
While at Gitmo, he was shackled and deprived of sleep - practices approved at the time by the White House. He is also said to have suffered severe mental stress over threats that he would be removed from U.S. custody and transferred to a more cruel regime.
OK, so the Americans put the frighteners on him, but if they hadn't cared less whether he lived or died, they wouldn't have had him on suicide watch.
His treatment wasn't pretty, but it has to be put in context of the 3,000 people killed in the worst-ever terrorist attack on U.S. soil.
As to his claims to have suffered genital mutilation while in CIA custody in Morocco, there has never been any firm evidence produced.
Binyam Mohamed maintains he went to Afghanistan not to train with the Taliban, but to confront his addiction to drugs and alcohol.
Most people would have signed up to AA (Alcoholics Anonymous, not Alky Ada) or checked themselves into The Priory. He travelled halfway round the world to one of the most inhospitable, tyrannical countries on Earth.
For a man said to have been in mortal terror of being tortured, he appears to have had no problem moving to a jurisdiction which would have cheerfully beheaded him or stoned him to death for taking a sip of alcohol.
The inconsistencies in his story are glaring, yet he has found a gullible audience for his fairy tales, including a fawning 'interview' on the BBC.
The prime movers behind this case appear to be motivated as much by rampant anti-Americanism as any concern about the Binman's 'yuman rites'.
In case anyone is a little confused after reading that.
Binyam Mohamed had British Resident status.
He was arrested in 2002, spent 2 years in "black sites" and four in Guantanamo Bay, there is evidence he was tortured.
He has not been tried for any offence, the charges against him were dropped.
All that aside, what sort of people are we to condone the use of torture? There is no doubt whatsoever that the American government routinely used torture and it is looking like the British government were complicit in it. Can we call ourselves civilized and not express outrage?
In case anyone is a little confused after reading that.
Binyam Mohamed had British Resident status.
He was arrested in 2002, spent 2 years in "black sites" and four in Guantanamo Bay, there is evidence he was tortured.
He has not been tried for any offence, the charges against him were dropped.
All that aside, what sort of people are we to condone the use of torture? There is no doubt whatsoever that the American government routinely used torture and it is looking like the British government were complicit in it. Can we call ourselves civilized and not express outrage?
gullible audience for his fairy tales
gullible audience for his fairy tales
Well done bekiman for another masterpiece on how to make a constructive contribution to the intellectual debates on this forum.
As you seem to be incapable of making valid points I will make it easier for you.
More than 17 Afghanis dead today, killed by suicide bomb - fact
1 UK soldier dead today, cause of death at time of post unknown - fact
The facts won't go away, people are being killed because people like you bury your head in the sand. Wake up and smell the coffee
Is it time for a tea break ?
Would like to ask, if anyone debating topic so furiously watched the series: Generation Kill ?? and what were there thoughts on the series ?
I personally thought this was a brilliant, yet saddening program showing what the modern day soldiers role in Iraq \ Afghanistan. Based on 90% true events.
Made me think, wtf is our force doing there !
Time to pull out and leave them to it i think and move on to Argentina.
Made me think, wtf is our force doing there !
Indeed. Or how the most technically advanced military nations in the world seem unable to overcome a bunch of cave-dwelling medieval-throwbacks armed with rusty old Soviet machine guns.
More than 17 Afghanis dead today, killed by suicide bomb - fact
Who's fault is this ???? Uk ? US ? or crazy Islamic sadistic bombers ?
Yoda the flump
26-Feb-10, 20:46
The facts won't go away, people are being killed because people like you bury your head in the sand. Wake up and smell the coffee
Well mate, what's the alternative?
Pull out and leave Afghanistan to its fate? Its a mess there and yeah, we have a lot of responsibility for that - but can you imagine the alternative? Do you want to?
Pull out all NATO troops and then what? Watch the Afghan nation pull itself apart in a bloody civil war and then what - Pakistan aint the most stable of states and then have nuclear weapons.
Unless you have a strong Pakistan then NATO has to stay in Afghanistan and try and give the country stability.
NATO out and the conflict will spread to Pakistan, and then Israel and India might just feel obliged to get involved.
It aint great there mate, but the alternatives are even worse at the moment.
Wake up and smell the coffee
That will be Nescafe for me please.
Well mate, what's the alternative?
Pull out and leave Afghanistan to its fate? Its a mess there and yeah, we have a lot of responsibility for that - but can you imagine the alternative? Do you want to?
Pull out all NATO troops and then what? Watch the Afghan nation pull itself apart in a bloody civil war and then what - Pakistan aint the most stable of states and then have nuclear weapons.
Unless you have a strong Pakistan then NATO has to stay in Afghanistan and try and give the country stability.
NATO out and the conflict will spread to Pakistan, and then Israel and India might just feel obliged to get involved.
It aint great there mate, but the alternatives are even worse at the moment.
No good, I've tried all that Yoda-just gets ignored. They are only interested in outrage not any practical notion.
And personally I'd like all my terrorists thoroughly tortured thanks. Find out where the next "controlled demolition" will be.
Well mate, what's the alternative?
Pull out and leave Afghanistan to its fate? Its a mess there and yeah, we have a lot of responsibility for that - but can you imagine the alternative? Do you want to?
Pull out all NATO troops and then what? Watch the Afghan nation pull itself apart in a bloody civil war and then what - Pakistan aint the most stable of states and then have nuclear weapons.
Unless you have a strong Pakistan then NATO has to stay in Afghanistan and try and give the country stability.
NATO out and the conflict will spread to Pakistan, and then Israel and India might just feel obliged to get involved.
It aint great there mate, but the alternatives are even worse at the moment.
We have to accept that some situations do not have an easy solution (India/Pakistan/West Bank etc) and that by trying to find one, all we do is make things worse.
Solutions to difficult conflicts can be found e.g. we just might have found a solution to end 700 years of bloodshed in Ireland. But it takes time, and all sides of any conflict need to sit down and open a dialogue
Your suggestion of a strong Pakistan will not find favour with India.
If I had a solution I would gladly offer it up to UN/NATO but I think the first priority is to try and reduce the number of deaths on all sides.
Yoda the flump
26-Feb-10, 21:38
To be fair to you Anfield I will re phrase that - A stable Pakistan.
Tubthumper
26-Feb-10, 21:51
If I had a solution I would gladly offer it up to UN/NATO but I think the first priority is to try and reduce the number of deaths on all sides.
Now we're starting to make sense!
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